Public Safety Committee on Feb. 22nd, 2021

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You disappeared yourself. There might be some who are cheering for that.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Ms. Latimer, I wonder if you could help us. We all know, of course, about the long-standing and awful overrepresentation of indigenous, Black and other people of colour in the prison system. You're probably familiar with the report of Tom Cardoso of The Globe and Mail last fall talking about risk assessments. He says they get the worst possible scores because there are biased risk assessments against Black and indigenous people. That results in higher security classifications, less access to programs, longer sentences and less access to parole.

Clearly, they're worse off in terms of being able to be reintegrated into society. From a recidivism point of view, you have a candidate who comes out of prison without any help in being able to be more successful. Is that something you recognize as being a serious problem that has to be fixed? And how do we go about doing that?

[Catherine Latimer]

It's a terribly serious problem. I have been on a journey to try to learn more about it. There are many who know way more about indigenous issues than I do, but I've been speaking to many Black prisoners about the experiences they've had.

One in particular, when he was 19 or 20, received a life 10 sentence for gang-related violence in an urban centre. He's been in there 30 years and hasn't seen a parole eligibility date. He's trying to figure out why. First of all, he firmly believes that he would.... He has a family to return to; he has a lot of support in the community. He's made up his mind. He's given up “the life”, which is what they call it. This is a very key thing for dealing with this type of Black offenders, who will no longer be participating in the street crime that led them to problems in the first place.

He said, “The correctional programs were designed to assess my ability to reintegrate into a white middle-class neighbourhood. That's not where I'm from, and that's not where I'm going.” They just completely miss the cues and the supports, and what he really has that would make him successful in the community.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unfortunately, we're going to have to leave it there.

[Catherine Latimer]

Sorry, it was too long an answer.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

No, Mr. Harris is famous for too long questions.

We're going to bring the questions to an end here. It's 6:08.

I've asked the legislative clerk to be available to us. All of the proposed amendments are in order. Normally, I would be in a situation where I could simply proceed with a kind of schedule, which I don't have in front of me, so I'm going to lean very heavily on our clerk to keep us going in some sort of order.

Before we start that process, I want to thank our witnesses. They may or may not wish to stay around. Bismarck once said that there are two things that you shouldn't see in life. One is the making of sausages, and the second is the making of legislation. We are in the process of making legislation here today.

Mr. Bragdon, I'm sure, will want to stay around.

With that, I'll turn to the clerk and ask him to call the first item, since I don't have a thing in front of me that would say what's the first item I'm supposed to call on this bill.

[The Clerk]

I'll turn it over to the legislative clerk for that, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay. Thank you.

[Jacques Maziade, Legislative Clerk]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

According to the standing order, the committee should postpone clause 1, which is the short title, and the preamble. The chair should call clause 2, amendment LIB-1.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

On clause 2, LIB-1, Ms. Damoff, please go ahead.

(On clause 2)

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I know that Mr. Bragdon is in support of this amendment. It basically changes the word “collaboration” to “consultation”. It would say, “in consultation with representatives of the provinces, with a variety of Indigenous governing bodies and Indigenous organizations”, and the rest would stay the same.

It's just clarifying some wording here, and I believe Mr. Bragdon is supportive of the change.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I can indicate that Mr. Bragdon is in support of the change. Is there any debate?

All those in favour of the amendment as read by Ms. Damoff?

(Amendment agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

I'll turn it over to our very competent legislative clerk.

Mr. Maziade, what's the next thing to be moved?

[The Legislative Clerk]

Mr. Chair, the next item is LIB-2.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

This would be LIB-2, on clause 2, as already amended.

[The Legislative Clerk]

Yes, that is correct.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

On LIB-2, Ms. Damoff, please go ahead.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

This is also on clause 2.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Yes. LIB-1 has passed. You're on LIB-2.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

With respect, though, Mr. Chair.... We voted to accept the amendment. Now we have to vote on the clause, do we not, Mr. Clerk, before we move on?

[The Legislative Clerk]

No, we don't, because LIB-2 is also on clause 2.

We will vote on clause 2 at the end.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

That's why I tried to clarify.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Okay. I'm sorry.

This one is with regard to paragraph 2(2)(a). It just replaces the line “and evidenced-based programs to reduce recidivism;” with “and evidence-based programs aimed at reducing recidivism;”.

Again, I know that Mr. Bragdon is aware of the change and is supportive of it. It just clarifies wording.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I can confirm that with Mr. Bragdon.

Is there any debate?

(Amendment agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

Are we still on clause 2, Mr. Clerk?

[The Legislative Clerk]

Yes, we are still on clause 2.

The next item is LIB-3.