Public Safety Committee on June 2nd, 2021

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Commissioner, for being here.

Bill, thank you very much for being here and providing this level of testimony to our committee.

I'm pretty sure I heard you say in your remarks that efforts were under way to address the paramilitary efforts within the RCMP.

I'm new to this committee and I'm finding that the other members of this committee certainly have an awful lot more background on this report. However, to me, the idea of tearing somebody down to rebuild them in the way that you want them is kind of archaic, and I can't imagine it not leading to major issues down the road. When my colleagues were studying this report, they heard from many witnesses and experts about the need to address this.

I wonder if you could speak to the committee today about this paramilitary structure that you and the RCMP will be addressing.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you very much, Darren.

It's a really important issue, and not just for the RCMP but for all police organizations right across the country. I think the RCMP recognizes that in a modern police service they have to address the entire merit criteria they apply in hiring people.

I believe that the RCMP recruits outstanding people to their organization. However, it's important that we look at the recruitment, training and deployment of the members to ensure that the culture is more welcoming to diverse people and to women in the organization. I think that's critically important, and that is the work the RCMP is undergoing.

We talked about the diversity and inclusion strategy they are implementing. One of the things I wanted to highlight for the committee is that we actually recruited the commissioner because of what we believed to be her outstanding ability to bring about change in the organization. However, let me acknowledge, because I've done this in another police service, that it's a very difficult challenge.

We've given the commissioner a very explicit mandate, and she's been working tirelessly. It really begins with leadership—as she's already indicated—and she's made significant changes within the leadership of the RCMP. I think it sends a very strong signal about the importance of diversity and inclusion, a diversity of perspectives, in policing.

It is going to result in and necessitate—as Justice Bastarache indicated—a significant reform of police culture, which he referred to as a “toxic culture”. That reform is well under way under the leadership of the commissioner, and I believe it's our government's responsibility—and all Canadians' responsibility—to support the RCMP as they go about those important changes in addressing the culture that Justice Bastarache expressed very understandable concerns about.

The commissioner has been working tirelessly with her entire team. Change is steady but slow, and we want to continue to work hard on it and continue to accelerate that work.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you very much, Bill. That segues perfectly with my next question for the commissioner.

The report—as you said, Bill—does make it very clear that the culture within the RCMP is described as “toxic” and that external forces are needed to address this serious problem. I know this means an awful lot to the people back home in my riding in Dartmouth-Cole Harbour, and people all across Canada care very much about this issue.

To the commissioner, what concrete action are you taking to address this? Mr. Motz might have touched on this earlier with a question to the minister, but is the RCMP consulting with any external bodies to address this concern, Commissioner?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

As the minister alluded to, I was given a strict mandate to modernize the RCMP and to transform its culture. Therefore, we've been engaging with numerous external and independent bodies and individuals to address issues around workplace culture.

Of note, first of all, we have the RCMP management advisory board, which was established by the government in 2019. They are there to provide an external advisory function to me on the management and administration of the RCMP. It was given a specific responsibility to provide guidance and advice on workplace culture, and that's the very issue that Justice Bastarache outlines in his report.

Since its establishment, the board has challenged the RCMP's thinking and provided thoughtful advice and guidance on a number of areas. Most importantly, it's been instrumental in the development of the independent centre for harassment resolution, and they had a specific task force just for that.

There are several initiatives I've launched in the past three years that have brought culture and management modernization. We've been engaging groups, individuals and experts, including the Association of Black Law Enforcers. I have a commissioner's diversity advisory committee. I have a national indigenous advisory committee. I have a lived experience indigenous committee. I have the Government of Canada joint employment equity committee, the Serving with Pride group, the Federal Black Employee Caucus and the Women's Executive Network.

With that, there has been a lot of consultation, and the EDI strategy provides that clear structure for the concrete actions under way to address racism and discrimination, and to promote that inclusion in the RCMP workforce and how the organization will provide service to communities.

We're trying to hit as many people who are impacted by the decisions we make as possible, so that our decisions are better decisions and more in tune with those people.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Okay.

Commissioner, you talked about modern recruitment processes. I'm interested, in just a short period of time, if you can outline maybe a couple of new ways of detecting bias.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

We brought in a screening process whereby we can, in fact, screen for discrimination and racist behaviours. It's exciting. Before, we'd look at some of the skills and experience, but now we're looking at character and we're looking at the implicit bias test in that—so stay tuned.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Fisher.

Ms. Larouche, welcome once more to our committee. The floor is yours for six minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to the Minister for joining us. My thanks also to the Commissioner, Ms. Lucki, for her very interesting opening remarks. This is a matter on which, sadly, we see that a lot of work remains to be done before we can talk about inclusion and diversity, and can eliminate the toxic masculinity and the sexualized culture.

As a member of the Standing Committee on the Status of Women, I am sometimes discussing these problems in relation to the Armed Forces. But we are realizing that the culture is also to be found within the RCMP, as the Bastarache Report unfortunately proves.

Mr. Minister, in your opening remarks, you said that, despite all the efforts and the work that has been done, you regret that the RCMP is not the modern body you want. Could you tell us more about what, in your opinion, would make the RCMP more modern?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Larouche, and I think it's a very important question.

The RCMP is iconic in Canada and well respected around the world, but we have seen incidents. The Bastarache report, I think, revealed to us very clearly that there are elements of the work environment within the RCMP that are not as supportive and welcoming as they need to be for women and diverse people in the organization. I think the commissioner has been engaged in some very positive work in this regard, but I wanted to acknowledge that there's a great deal of work that still needs to be done.

We see it as well in our relationship, and it's something we are very much seized with. Recent events, I think, have brought it home for all of us. The relationship between the RCMP and diverse people, particularly indigenous people in this country, is troubled by a long and difficult history between the RCMP and indigenous people in Canada, and notwithstanding that there's a great deal of progress that has been made, there remains a great deal of work to do.

I think it's important to the principles of reconciliation, but also, there's nothing more important in the relationship between the police and the public they are sworn to serve and protect than trust. Earning the trust of the people you serve is work that needs to be done every single day, and it could be lost in a single unfortunate incident or an individual's inappropriate conduct.

I know that the commissioner remains very strongly focused on being worthy of Canadians' trust, and we recognize that, in a large paramilitary organization, there needs to be continuous progress towards reform. That includes bringing in a greater diversity of perspective within the RCMP, people with different lived experience, women, indigenous people and people from racialized communities. That diversity of perspective will help the organization progress. The RCMP and the commissioner recognize that, and they have lots of work to do through recruitment and training on how we treat the people within the organization.

As I've already mentioned to Mr. Motz, I also think that police services must be transparently accountable to the people they serve, and that's why we're working on improving the governance structure for policing in the RCMP right across the country.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Mr. Minister, you were very right to begin your remarks by offering your condolences to Indigenous peoples for the tragedy in Kamloops, by which I mean the discovery of the remains of 215 children. I took part in the debate last evening, and my thoughts are with the mothers and families of the deceased. I also offer them my condolences.

Since we are speaking of Indigenous peoples, you talked a lot about diversity and about the importance of regaining trust in the RCMP as a major organization. You made a brief comment about one of the main recommendations, the establishment of an independent body. You mentioned $32 million and said that the work is ongoing. I would like an update on the status of that important recommendation.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Larouche. This is also a very important question.

The ICHR, which was what was recommended, is being introduced on June 30. That's when it will actually launch. The RCMP have been working very hard doing a number of things. The ICHR is going to focus on prevention, including awareness and education campaigns. It's going to provide access to training for supervisors. It is intended to increase trust and address concerns among the members of the RCMP with a new model, which will be independent and outside of the chain of command. It's going to use external investigators.

We're developing a roster of expert investigators from outside the RCMP who will conduct the investigations, reach conclusions and provide recommendations to restore the workplace. I believe that the external nature of this and using people outside of the chain of command will be able to provide assurance to survivors of harassment within the workplace that their complaints will be taken very seriously, that they will be believed and supported, and that there will be no repercussions or retribution for bringing harassment complaints forward.

I think it's a very important innovation, but it also requires a significant investment in the prevention of and not just the response to harassment when it occurs in the workplace.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

All right, as I understand it, it's on its way.

I would also like to hear from Ms Lucki, who talked about operational skills.

Ms. Lucki, could you quickly tell us what you mean by “the right people doing the right job”?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unfortunately, we're going to have to hold that question because Madam Larouche is out of time.

Mr. Harris, you have six minutes, please.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Minister, for joining us. I know your colleague from Dartmouth—Cole Harbour called you Bill. I'm happy to do that in private and socially, but since you're here in your official capacity as minister of the crown, I will call you minister. We are looking to you as the person responsible to speak on behalf of the government and respond to the serious circumstances we're dealing with.

In response to your question from my colleague from the Bloc, you said that Mr. Justice Bastarache found that the RCMP were not as supportive as they needed to be towards women. I would perhaps call that the understatement of the year, but the year is very young.

The committee's response to Mr. Bastarache was quite different from that. In fact, he said about the RCMP that the workplace included systemic patterns of discrimination based on gender, sexual orientation and race, including toxic workplace cultures characterized by misogyny, homophobia, racism and interpersonal violence including sexual violence. He said that women and LGBTQ2S people were prevented from receiving promotions, training and work assignments on an equal basis with other applicants. They had retribution exacted for attempts to bring forward complaints.

That is not exactly the kind of characterization you gave it.

He went further, and I want you to address this particular point. He said that he was not confident that change could take place inside the institution itself—and I think the committee members were struck by the force of that comment that he had no confidence—and that there was no way forward without some form of sustained, independent and external pressure.

I want to suggest to you that this shouldn't be coming from members of Parliament and parliamentary committees. This ought to come from a structure of governance, which you mentioned in relation to the contract policing for the RCMP. What about the RCMP itself? What about an independent oversight board such as those that civilian police forces across the country are governed by?

Would you be supportive of that as a way of ensuring that there was sustained, ongoing and independent external pressure to seek the changes that are necessary?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Harris, before Minister Blair responds, could you raise your microphone? The interpreters are having considerable difficulty hearing you.

Minister Blair.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Harris.

First of all, let me be very clear. I did not intend in any way to minimize what I believe to be the egregious and totally unacceptable behaviour that women and LGBTQ members of the RCMP were subjected to, as highlighted in the Bastarache report. Those behaviours are completely unacceptable. If I failed to describe them and denounce them as clearly as they needed to be, let me please correct that now because they are completely unacceptable.

I also discussed with Justice Bastarache the need for external oversight and governance of the RCMP. I think it's a very important element of public trust that there be sound governance. We're certainly working towards that now with the new legislative framework for indigenous policing, which will enable us to address the issues of governance for that aspect of service delivery of the RCMP.

There are a number of other aspects I would highlight for you. For example, we have and are continuing to work with the complaints review commission established by our government with respect to the RCMP. I think significant enhancements need to be done. I will be bringing forward legislation to bring forward those enhancements of the complaints review process.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

If I may interrupt.... Yes, we would like to see that. We didn't see it in the last iteration of the legislation that was brought before prorogation.

Let me ask you this. You have also made reference to the ICHR, which you describe as an independent centre for harassment resolution. That sounded to me, with the prevention education and training goals, more like the kind of thing that I was involved in, which was a dispute resolution mediation kind of thing, as opposed to, in fact, making sure that people who are guilty of serious sexual harassment, including instances of rape, for example.... The former Justice Bastarache identified 131 cases that he was aware of that qualified as that.

What has been done to ensure that people who have actually committed serious criminal offences in the course of their interactions with other members of the RCMP are actually brought to justice? What has been done to follow up on that identified problem—as opposed to a dispute resolution—and in fact, to root out and make sure that those people who are responsible are actually held accountable?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Mr. Harris, anyone who engages in those behaviours should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law and should be in jail, and in my opinion has no right to be a police officer. The Government of Canada does not conduct criminal investigations, but I believe that where there is evidence—and again, one has to respect the wishes of the survivors of these actions in how we proceed—I am absolutely supportive of holding individuals who engage in those clearly criminal behaviours to the full account of the law. They should be brought to justice.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Harris.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Again, the government doesn't conduct criminal investigations, but I'm very supportive of dealing with those individuals appropriately.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

That moves us to our second round. We'll commence our second five-minute round with Madam Stubbs, Madam Damoff, Madam Larouche, Mr. Harris, Mr. Van Popta and a Liberal to be named later.

Go ahead, Madam Stubbs, for five minutes, please.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Just following up on my question [Technical difficulty—Editor].

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You're on mute, Shannon.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

I'm sorry. I have serious rural Internet connection issues today. Thank you, Chair.

I'll follow up on a point that Mr. Motz made and that Mr. Harris was ending on.

Minister, can I get some clarity here? Rather than repeating our shared outrage about these issues, can you offer some specifics about the consequences? Are you saying that of the 3,000 complaints, of the 131 legitimate cases and of the 15 serial perpetrators and repeat offenders, not one single criminal charge has been laid and you aren't doing anything about it?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Mrs. Stubbs, I'm not a police officer anymore. The responsibility for conducting criminal investigations and disciplinary investigations resides with the commissioner, so that question is perhaps better directed towards her.