Public Safety Committee on June 2nd, 2021

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Minister, I would like to go back to a comment you made in your opening statement.

First, we know that there have been calls for changes in the RCMP on a number of occasions for more than 30 years. We know that the culture and the sexual harassment are among the problems.

You mentioned that changes are happening but that they are happening slowly. How can we make them happen more quickly? What do we need to speed up the implementation of the recommendations in the Bastarache Report? Is more money needed? Is it a matter of political will or of leadership?

What do we need to speed up these important processes for changing the culture within the RCMP?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Madam Larouche, I think one of the most important elements of your question is about leadership, and it's one of the reasons we selected Commissioner Lucki as the first woman commissioner of the RCMP. Commissioner Lucki, I believe, has been doing some excellent work in bringing a significant change at the top for her organization, and it is far more reflective....

I would also point out, for example, some of the things that Justice Bastarache identified with respect to, for example, maternity and parental leave within the RCMP. Those are things that, quite frankly, the traditional, iconic organization that is the RCMP has been perhaps not as quick and adaptable to as they need to be. Ensuring meaningful work for women who are expecting children, providing sufficient human resource funding and backfilling positions are a number of very significant things that the RCMP can do to create a more welcoming environment.

The commissioner is very much seized with modifications through the equity, diversity and inclusion strategy to bring about changes in their recruitment, changes in their training and significant changes in the work environment, all of which I believe will be necessary to and supportive of the diversity the RCMP seeks.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have a few seconds.

I think we'll probably go to Mr. Harris for a final two and a half minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Okay.

Since I only have 20 seconds left, I'll keep my question for later. I wanted to ask Commissioner Lucki again, but I don't have enough time for it.

Mr. Minister, thank you very much for being with us today.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Well, you'll get another round.

Mr. Harris, you have two and a half minutes.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

Minister, you referred to the RCMP as an “iconic” force. Indeed, it is. It's over 150 years old. It was a colonial force, in fact, a tool of colonialism in Canada, and it's also a paramilitary force with the training that goes with that.

Do you think it's time for that to be changed, that we not have what's been described to our committee as a process that strips down the individual and builds them back up again in the mould of the RCMP? Isn't that something that should be tossed away with the colonial attitude that was present at the time of the incorporation of the force, and we should turn to a police service model? Would the minister agree with that?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Mr. Harris, I very much agree with that. One of the founding principles of policing is that the police are the public, and the public are the police. The police truly do have to reflect the values and the diversity of the people they are sworn to serve and protect. I think that type of reform, that type of evolution, has been an important thing for all policing right across the country, and it's particularly important for such an iconic, tradition-bound organization as the RCMP.

There is very much, I think, for Canadians to be proud of, but the RCMP has to continue to evolve and to become more reflective, and frankly, more open. I believe that engaging more fulsomely with the people they're sworn to serve and protect—

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Minister, if you agree with that, what do you think needs to happen to get rid of that paramilitary mindset and bring about changes from the very start of recruitment to the RCMP? What needs to happen? What will you do?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I would invite you to discuss with the commissioner in the next round some of the reforms she's bringing about at Depot, where much of the emphasis at one point in time was placed upon marching and compliance with that paramilitary structure and those traditions. It's evolving quite significantly to become far more inclusive, far more diverse and far more open to working within communities.

I've watched policing evolve significantly, Mr. Harris, over the past 40 years. There's still progress that needs to be made, but I believe that the commissioner is very much engaged with her senior management team in bringing about those changes in recruitment, in training and in the way services are being delivered. A big part of that is working with the people who are policed by the RCMP, including in indigenous communities, to ensure that the police services delivered in their communities are respectful of the way in which they wish to be policed and really develop that relationship that I spoke of that is so important between the police and the public.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Harris.

At this point, we'll excuse Minister Blair and go on to Mr. Van Popta for five minutes, please.

Thank you, Minister Blair.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, committee members.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Commissioner Lucki, it's good to see you. Thank you for being here. This is a very important discussion that we're having today.

The minister was asked on a couple of occasions about possible criminal prosecutions, and he pointed out that elected politicians don't do prosecutions. Of course, I agree with that, but Commissioner Lucki, what is your opinion on that? Would this be an appropriate situation for appointing a special prosecutor?

If the witnesses Mr. Justice Bastarache and the other investigators heard from are to be believed, there was criminal activity, and I think, for the sake of public confidence in our national police force, that needs to be taken seriously. What do you say about that? Is this an appropriate case for a special prosecutor?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

The first thing I will say is that there is no tolerance in my organization for that behaviour, period—full stop.

In terms of the conditions under which Justice Bastarache went through the process, there was full confidentiality. Unfortunately, and I talked about this when it came out, I have no idea who the offenders are unless the survivors of that activity come forward. It's unfortunate, but if that behaviour shows itself now, absolutely we deal with that. We lay charges in those instances. The thing is that we can't deconflict with what Justice Bastarache said and figure out who those offenders are, because it was all done in confidentiality.

One message that I really do want to give loud and clear is this: I need the women to speak out. We're listening. We are creating a process that will.... We're taking this seriously. That's what the ICHR is about. They can come forward, but if it's criminal, absolutely it's paramount that they come forward. It will be investigated.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Thank you for that.

I find it a little hard to believe that you don't have reasonable and probable grounds for having an investigation. Mr. Justice Bastarache said in his report that it was an open secret, not just in the last six months or couple of years but going back many years, that there was sexual harassment going on. This never would have stood in the private sector. Something would have happened.

What do you say about that?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

We don't know what we don't know, unfortunately. If these complaints are not brought forward...and they don't have to be brought forward by the person who is the victim of those complaints. They can be brought forward in any form. We will do a fulsome investigation if it's an internal process. If it's criminal, we will seek outside resources to do a criminal investigation. We will bring that to the court.

When you talk about special prosecutors, we don't need special prosecutors. It's the court. It's a Criminal Code offence. It will be brought to Canadian courts and charges will be laid. People will be held to account if the evidence is there.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

I have a question about the report itself. When I read it, I was shocked, as I'm sure many Canadians were, at how pervasive sexual discrimination and abuse is in the RCMP. As Mr. Justice Bastarache said, it's not new. It's been going on for many years.

Commissioner Lucki, I have a great deal of respect for you and your career. Having been in the RCMP or police services for so many years, were you shocked by what that report said?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Oh, my goodness, absolutely I was shocked.

Everybody has a journey. I've had a journey. It was so difficult to see what some people had to go through and how long it took for their concerns to be heard.

I talked to Linda Davidson before the report came out. When she told me, “You know, I love the RCMP, but nobody would listen,” that tore my heart. I vowed that this would never happen again, ever—not on my watch, anyway.

That's exactly why I brought in—

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Thank you. I think we were all shocked.

Are you confident that the initiatives you're now starting will be effective in restoring the public's confidence—and pride, I might add—in the RCMP? I was brought up to be very proud of my RCMP. This report was not only shocking. It was also very disappointing.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unfortunately, we will have to save the answer to that good question for the next round.

With that, Ms. Lambropoulos, you have five minutes, please.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Commissioner Lucki, for being with us today. It must not be easy to reconfront something that was already shocking to everybody. I can't imagine how it must have felt for you, someone who is heading the organization and who is the commissioner of the RCMP.

I'm a little newer with regard to this. I did read the Bastarache report. I was able to ask him questions when he came to committee. I have a question with regard to how complaints work.

The way I understand it, the RCMP investigates the complaint itself. To whom does the complaint go? Who receives the complaint once someone comes forward?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Thank you for that question.

If you're speaking specifically to the harassment complaints, the ICHR has been set up as a separate entity. Any other complaints outside the harassment process go through our code of conduct process. Of course, criminal complaints go a whole different route.

With harassment specifically, what we've done with the ICHR is to bring it out of the chain of command. We've brought in external investigators. The external investigators aren't part of the RCMP. They've been procured through government processes. They will do the complete investigation. They will come to a conclusion. Once the conclusion is made, it will be brought back to a conduct authority outside of the chain of command if there is, in fact, discipline to be dealt with. If there is no discipline to be dealt with.... Obviously we try to deal with things at the lowest level through a referral to an informal conflict management program if we can, but if not, it goes through that whole investigation.

It's important that this process is accessible, timely and supports that accountability. The biggest part of it, as well, is the restoration of the workplace. In the initial instances, we may in fact move people out of their workplace. We may have to move individuals who have allegations of this behaviour against them out of the workplace to restore it the workplace and make sure it is safe.

That's the process in general terms. I could pass it over to Mr. Stringer, our chief administrative officer, who was instrumental in creating this process with our management advisory board, if you need more information.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you.

Before we go on to Mr. Stringer, I have a second question. Afterwards, Ms. Johnson and Mr. Stringer can chime in as well.

First of all, it seems that not many people came forward, as you said yourself, until it was completely confidential and someone on the outside was doing the investigation. A lot of the women made reference to the fact that they didn't feel they could come forward because they would be punished. They felt that the people doing the harassing were actually getting rewarded and it was some sort of clique, an old boys' club type of thing.

What—concretely—is being done to counter this? I mean, you spoke a lot about the culture and the things that you're doing at the top to change things so that once you're gone, the next person who takes your seat can continue the change. Obviously, we want the change to continue.

What—concretely—is being done to make people feel comfortable, feel like they can come forward and feel like they aren't going to be punished for coming forward? How can you entice and encourage women to come forward if they are afraid that their career is in jeopardy or that no one is going to be on their side?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

That is a great question. Thank you for that.

First of all, the RCMP prohibits acts of reprisal or retaliation. Employees who engage in retaliation against a complainant, a respondent, a witness, an investigator or even a decision-maker will be subject to disciplinary or conduct measures up to and including dismissal. We take it really seriously.

The new ICHR process has clear and accessible information on the policies. We expect the reports of reprisals to be resolved according to the Canada Labour Code regulations. We also have to look at education, prevention and awareness, and we have to promote employee trust, of course. That's important. We have to make sure that this process is fair, people are taken seriously and they need not fear any reprisals.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Madam Lambropoulos.

With that we complete the second round. We're starting the third round.

Mr. Kurek, you have five minutes, please.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the commissioner and the witnesses for coming to the committee today.

Commissioner, I found my colleague Mr. Van Popta's question very poignant. In one notable part of the report, I read about the grievous culture of sexual assault within the Musical Ride. In my childhood, I remember going and being excited about the horses and seeing a significant amount of Canadian pride represented there. That's a massive challenge.

I'd like to give you the opportunity to conclude or to answer Mr. Van Popta's question. Are the measures that have been taken thus far—that you've described in part and that the minister has described other aspects of—enough to restore accountability, give justice to the victims and ensure that Canadians can have pride in the RCMP?