Evidence of meeting #32 for Public Safety and National Security in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was report.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Brenda Lucki  Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Mark D'Amore
Kevin Stringer  Chief Administrative Officer, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Nadine Huggins  Executive Director, Human Resources Policies, Strategies and Programs, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Gail Johnson  Chief Human Resources Officer, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

5:50 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

Thank you for that.

There is no one measure that's going to be a panacea. When I was describing at one committee about training, it's not just about training. Of course it's not going to change our culture, nor is one event, but it's a series of events and it's building that foundation.

First of all, it's getting the right people in the door, making sure they have the right character, testing for bias and anti-racist behaviour, and then bringing them into our organization, training them, teaching them the core values, training them on the consequences of not adhering to the core values and firming those up through a cadet field-coaching program. Then it's an entire suite of leadership training and leadership development not only of supervisors but also for them to be able to hold others to account. It's the policies and procedures, changing those, and then using the external expertise. There's this whole suite of foundational pieces.

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

Thank you very much, Commissioner. I appreciate that.

Because we have very limited time within the committee, would it be possible for you to table with the committee some of those documents and some of the recruitment mechanisms that you've referenced? Certainly I'd be very curious to see what that looks like, and I'm sure others on the committee would as well, some of the other measures that you're talking about so that members of the committee could see that.

Frankly, I found it quite astounding that the minister talked quite a bit about the future, and I understand that's certainly the way that policy is effected, but to your knowledge, have there been any terminations resulting from sexual misconduct in the RCMP from the actions outlined in the Bastarache report?

5:50 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

I can't tie that specifically to the Bastarache report, because I don't know who those people are. I know that one of the—

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

If I could broaden that, then, in the last seven months or so, have there been any investigations initiated or charges laid against members of the RCMP for sexual misconduct?

5:50 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

Yes, there have.

For some of our statistics, if I go to 2019, for example, when I talk about sexual misconduct files, there were 50 files initiated, and out of those 50, 16 were established. Out of those, we had some voluntary discharges where people resigned or quit the RCMP, and in those cases, we had 11 that were dealt with in serious disciplinary measures, which can go from demotion to greater financial penalties, permanent transfer or dismissal.

I do say, though, for many people, when it gets to that part of the hearing, there are people who resign.

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

Have there been RCMP officers or members found guilty, yes or no?

5:50 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

Yes.

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

I have one final question here, as I have a few seconds.

How many of Justice Bastarache's recommendations have been fully implemented thus far?

5:50 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

I will get you that number.

Some of them we've grouped into themes. I'm just looking at the numbers here.

All of the recommendations have been worked on and implemented in spirit. I say that because one example is day cares in detachments, which is not possible, but we need to look at measures to provide day care for parents in the RCMP and women who have children. We need to be able to provide that day care. It won't be within a detachment, for example, but we are pursuing all recommendations.

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Commissioner.

Rather than our letting you struggle with trying to be more precise, could you undertake to the committee to give us as precise a response as possible to Mr. Kurek's question?

With that, we'll turn to Madam Khera for five minutes, please.

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

Kamal Khera Liberal Brampton West, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Commissioner Lucki, for being here.

I know how difficult it is for everyone to be talking about this very troubling report. As I've said before, it is one of the most troubling and shocking reports that I've certainly ever read.

My colleague Mr. Kurek actually ended his questioning with the one that I wanted to get at first: Out of the 52 recommendations made by the Bastarache report, how many have been adopted?

Can you also speak to the specific changes you've started to address in terms of this misogynistic, racist and homophobic toxic culture within the RCMP?

5:55 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

In regard to your first question, we are looking at and implementing all recommendations, some of them not specifically as written by Justice Bastarache but in other ways, in a more holistic approach, like I said, for example, with the day care. There's a full commitment to all recommendations.

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

Kamal Khera Liberal Brampton West, ON

Thank you for that.

Commissioner, I also wanted to just talk briefly about the existing sanctions regime. I was informed that the conduct measures guide was last updated in 2014. Clearly, much has changed during that time. Can you perhaps expand on how this review could be reflective of the developments that have occurred since then?

5:55 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

That's a great question. We are doing a full review of the conduct measures regime. We are looking at the sanctions. Like you said, they were done in 2014, and we are hiring an external expert in that field to go through and to make sure that it's to today's modernization standards and that it's in line.

I could pass that over to Mr. Stringer. That's his area that he's working on.

5:55 p.m.

Kevin Stringer Chief Administrative Officer, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Thank you for that. I'm happy to add to that.

As the commissioner said, when we saw the recommendations from Justice Bastarache, there were a number of them that spoke to strengthening the sanctions regime. There were a few very specific areas. We did take a look at our conduct measures guidance, and that's where we outline, if this happens, this is the discipline. We realized, as was pointed out in the question, that this was last updated in 2014. Even the language didn't speak to some of the issues that we're facing today.

The view is setting up the ICHR but at the same time taking a look at the conduct and the sanctions regime and making sure that we're looking at what other police organizations are doing, plus other organizations. We're measuring what we have against what was in the report from Justice Bastarache and, as the commissioner said, making sure that it meets with the expectations of the public, the commissioner and employees in 2021 and going forward.

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

Kamal Khera Liberal Brampton West, ON

Thank you for that.

Commissioner Lucki, the Bastarache report also found that there were structural inequalities that prevented women and members of the LGBTQ2S+ community from receiving promotion, training and work assignments on an equal basis with other applicants. I'm sure that you would agree that one way to address that is having that diversity at the leadership level.

Since the release of the report, have there been any changes made to have that diversity and to have promotions of standing of women and LGBTQ2S+ individuals within the RCMP?

5:55 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

Absolutely. At the senior level, for example, you see on the screen our chief human resource officer, Gail Johnson, and our associate human resource officer, who helped create the EDI strategy, Nadine Huggins. We have a member of our LGBTQ community who is our chief strategic and external relations officer.

In the RCMP, we have 15 commanding officers. I used to say that we had almost 50% female, but now I can say that we have 60%. There are more females than there are males.

When you used to see the senior executive table, it used to be, like I said, white male police officers. Now you'll see diversity. Also, in the category of employees, they're not all police officers. We've brought in a female chief financial officer. We have brought in Kevin Stringer, who is a senior expert civilian. Gail Johnson and Nadine Huggins are not police officers either. We're getting not just diversity in the traditional sense but diversity of ideas and thoughts.

I would really like to pass it to Nadine, because she is so good at—

6 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Unfortunately, you've left her no time to be passed to.

6 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

I got too excited.

6 p.m.

Liberal

Kamal Khera Liberal Brampton West, ON

Thank you.

6 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Madam Khera.

Ms. Larouche, the floor is yours for two and a half minutes.

6 p.m.

Bloc

Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Perhaps I can have Ms. Huggins speak.

Ms. Lucki, you have talked about the efforts you have made to develop parity and equity. You talked about it as one of the measures you have put in place to combat what has been happening for 30 years in the Army in terms of discrimination, sexual harassment and problems with regard to the various LGBTQ2S+ communities. What would you have wanted Ms. Huggins to tell us about that?

6 p.m.

Nadine Huggins Executive Director, Human Resources Policies, Strategies and Programs, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to speak to you today.

I will just be talking about our strategy for equity, diversity and inclusion.

I'll say that the commissioner has spoken a lot about foundation. The EDI strategy that we've developed actually is one of the core bricks in our foundation. Like many institutions across the public service and across Canada, we've been on a path and now the RCMP has set a place and it's building a new foundation for our organization.

The EDI strategy is established along four pillars. One is around providing the appropriate leadership and governance. Second is to be clear, accountable and transparent in the tactics that we're putting in place. Third, we are enhancing the education and awareness of our organization from the ground up. All of these, taken together, will contribute to the culture change that the commissioner has been talking about.

That will change the culture of the RCMP. We have taken the time to really reflect on it, to hold discussions with independent experts, employees and external committees, in order to develop a document and adopt an approach to equity, diversity and inclusion that will truly change our organization.

6 p.m.

Bloc

Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC

Thank you.

6 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

You have 10 seconds.