Public Safety Committee on June 2nd, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I think I saw Commissioner Lucki on the call, and Minister Blair is here.

With that I call to order the 32nd meeting of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

The meeting is pursuant to the motion adopted December 7. It is resuming the study of the final report of the implementation of the Merlo Davidson settlement agreement. Mr. Justice Bastarache appeared before the committee and I don't think there was any one of our members who was not shocked by what he had to say. Therefore, I'm grateful that the minister and the commissioner are able to appear.

We will be going for two hours. We've arranged for that, but we've also arranged for a 15-minute in camera session after the appearance of the commissioner and the minister to discuss what we've heard.

With that, I propose to ask the minister for his seven-minute presentation, followed by, I'm assuming, Commissioner Lucki, and then we'll get right into questions. The minister will leave after one hour and we will continue on. I see really no benefit in interrupting the flow of questions, so we'll just keep on moving through the questions round after round.

With that, Minister Blair, welcome once again to the committee.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thanks also to the committee members for the opportunity to come before you today and to speak on these very important matters.

If I may, Mr. Chair, I would like to begin my remarks by expressing my sincere and deepest sympathies following the revelation of the 215 children's remains found in an unmarked grave at a residential school in Kamloops, British Columbia. These children were taken from their parents, forced to attend a residential school and never returned to their families. The tragic legacy of residential schools and the Government of Canada's role could not be more profoundly illustrated than through the discovery of the children's graves.

In addition, I want to acknowledge the clear and unavoidable RCMP role in that tragedy. I also acknowledge the role of the government in which we all serve. Over the past two years—and even today—I have spent considerable time discussing with Commissioner Lucki the RCMP's work towards reconciliation. The commissioner has assured me that the RCMP will offer its full support as we seek to learn more about the events in Kamloops. It will provide assistance as required in communities right across Canada.

As Canada mourns with the Tk'emlúps te Secwépemc first nation and all indigenous people, I think it's very clear that we must continue to strive to improve upon the services provided to indigenous people and communities across Canada. Thank you for allowing me to speak to that issue.

I am here today in response to the committee's study on issues surrounding Justice Bastarache’s report on gender- and sexual orientation-based harassment and discrimination in the RCMP.

The Bastarache report highlights far too many cases of workplace harassment and sexual misconduct that have deeply affected women and the LGBTQ2S+ members within the RCMP. Notwithstanding the many that were reported, we know it is likely that many went unreported.

Let me also state unequivocally that all Canadians deserve to feel safe from harassment and violence. That is why our government has explicitly mandated the commissioner of the RCMP to protect all employees of our organization, civilian and sworn, from this type of harassment and violence. After all, the women and members of the LGBTQ2S+ community who experienced this harassment had to consider how it would affect their careers, their chances of promotion and even their personal safety if they reported it.

I spoke with the commissioner as soon as the report was released. I emphasized that these unacceptable patterns of behaviour must end and a comprehensive plan must be implemented to address the report’s findings and recommendations.

I have also reached out and spoken at some length with Justice Bastarache to inform him of my commitment to support the commissioner in bringing about the necessary changes as well as in overseeing the reform of the RCMP, which will be guided by his recommendations.

Today I am very encouraged to report that implementation of many of the recommendations in the final report is well under way. I know that Commissioner Lucki will speak in greater detail on that progress and on forward priorities to address crucial issues of equality. However, if I may, I would like to highlight a few key points.

First of all, a new independent centre for harassment resolution will begin operating later this month to help ensure impartiality and consistency in decision-making and disciplinary action. Prior to 2019, cases of sexual harassment tended to be handled entirely internally within the RCMP. This approach did not enable survivors to feel heard or believed, nor did it give rise to the belief that offenders would be held accountable.

With the establishment of the ICHR, through external investigators, we seek to increase trust, address concerns of retribution and bias, and ensure that appropriate discipline is taken—up to and including termination of offenders. It will also work to address gaps, including consistency of decision-making and timeliness of investigations. It will also address the lack, in many cases, of well-trained investigators, follow-up, early intervention tools and informal conflict management.

The ICHR will align with the new Canada Labour Code workplace harassment and violence prevention regulations under Bill C-65. Unfortunately, measures alone cannot be applied after the fact. We also need to invest heavily in preventing harassment from happening in the first place.

To that end, a GBA+ review is being performed on the training curriculum. This is in addition to a review of the paramilitary aspects of training at Depot. This is in an effort to affect a cultural change in attitude towards workplace harassment and violence within the organization, beginning at the very start of a member’s career.

To prevent retaliation or recurrence, managers and supervisors are being provided with the necessary tools and resources to perform workplace restoration activities. To promote greater accountability, these will be tracked in the conflict resolution plan as part of the overall case resolution process.

The RCMP must effectively identify, correct and eliminate misconduct in their ranks. As the commissioner will shortly explain, the RCMP will launch an external review of their conduct and disciplinary processes. The commissioner and I have not been satisfied to this point with the pace of change that is expected in a modern law enforcement body. Canadians expect that the worst behaviour in the RCMP will result in serious disciplinary action on a consistent basis. As minister, that is my expectation as well.

I'm also happy to report that the RCMP has launched a comprehensive equity, diversity and inclusion strategy to address systemic barriers for diverse groups. This will work to establish transparent and accountable practices; stronger education, awareness and training regimes; and the foundations for culture change within the RCMP. I also know that Commissioner Lucki will describe how the RCMP is modernizing the recruitment and onboarding processes, including introducing new tools to assess character and detect bias.

We have a duty, all of us, to do the necessary work to prevent harassment and discrimination from ever occurring again. Women and members of the LGBTQ2S community must feel safe in coming forward to report all forms of harassment. They must know that they will be heard, believed and supported. These difficult calls must be met with a transparent investigation, with tangible consequences for those responsible, while actively supporting survivors who have the courage to speak out.

We know that we have to work hard to change the culture that persists not only in the RCMP but throughout all policing and paramilitary organizations. The commissioner shares my conviction that the culture must evolve and it must change. I will support her throughout to address root causes and modernize the training as we work to prevent the unacceptable incidents of behaviour outlined in the Bastarache report from ever occurring again.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I look forward to an opportunity to answer the questions of committee members.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Minister Blair.

Commissioner Lucki, do you have a statement that you wish to start with?

[Commissioner Brenda Lucki, Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Yes, I do.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay. Thank you.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair, and members of the committee.

Thank you for the invitation to speak on the important issues raised in the final report of the independent assessor.

I would like to acknowledge that I'm speaking to you on unceded Algonquin territory.

Later today, I will have with me Gail Johnston, our chief human resource officer; Kevin Stringer, our chief administrative officer; and Nadine Huggins, our executive director for HR policies, strategies and programs. We are all excited to speak to you today about the progress we're making at the RCMP.

The independent assessor's report was hard to read for many, including me, but I am so grateful to Justice Bastarache and his team, and to the women who came forward despite the pain it caused. As a woman with 34 years of experience in the RCMP, I come to this role with a lot of first-hand experience.

I have seen a lot of change, and I know that a lot is left to do. I am privileged to get to be part of moving us forward.

As Justice Bastarache said—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Excuse me for a second, Commissioner.

We're getting some sort of background noise. I'm not quite sure what the background noise is.

Perhaps you could continue. We'll see whether the background noise continues. Thank you.

I'm sorry to interrupt.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

No problem.

As Justice Bastarache said in his report—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I think we're getting it again.

It's the interpretation.

Can I get the clerk to intervene here?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Mark D'Amore]

We are looking into it right now, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We'll give it one more go. If not, we'll suspend for a minute or two until we get it organized.

I apologize once again. Please continue.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

As I said, Justice Bastarache said in his report, “This is a long-term endeavour that requires vision, leadership and determination over a decade or more.” This means taking strong action now to set the foundation to support long-term change, and that's exactly what we're doing.

I was given a mandate to modernize the organization and its culture, so preventing harassment and bad behaviour of all kinds means establishing the foundation to attract and retain the right people, because we have a healthy workplace that is barrier-free. We need to support our employees to deal with workplace issues at the earliest point, and create a culture where people are not afraid to speak up.

This will not be accomplished by checking a box on the latest report. We need to challenge our norms. We need to be creative and open. We need to listen to the people most affected, build relationships of trust and stay focused on the long term.

Since I took the chair, we have set a more holistic path forward. My goal is to ensure that, no matter who sits in this chair, change will continue because we've set up the right foundation. We have focused on four areas: accountable governance; inclusive leadership; equity, diversity and inclusion; and trusted resolutions mechanisms. By staying the course, we have already moved the yardsticks on many of the themes identified in this report.

I won't get into a long laundry list, but I do want to focus on what I sincerely believe to be the most significant areas of change.

First, we have improved the diversity at the top. It has both symbolic and real impacts. Not only can diverse people see themselves in our most senior leaders but our decision-making is much better. My senior executive team is more diverse and more balanced, whether it be gender, civilian or other forms of diversity.

More than 50% of our commanding officers are female, as an example. It has improved the discussions we have and changed how we approach issues in the RCMP. We're also working with our external management advisory board, which brings even more expertise and diversity.

Second, we have worked hard to develop a new model to deal with harassment complaints. I am glad to say that the independent centre for harassment resolution will be launched by June 30, 2021. It's in line with the recommendations. It's outside the chain of command, and it uses external investigators to ensure it is trusted and unbiased.

We believe this will improve trust and give people the confidence to speak out. The centre is also focused on prevention, providing informal conflict management tools to deal with things at the lowest level and to analyze what works to prevent such behaviour.

We have more to do. We will soon launch an external review of our conduct process and disciplinary measures to make sure our sanctions are effective and in line with modern expectations.

Third, we have new tools to detect and eliminate systemic discrimination. Gender-based analysis plus is an approach we rolled out across our organization, starting with our senior decision-making. It gives us the lens we need to identify barriers faced by women and diverse groups, and to see things in a different way.

The GBA+ has led to many specific but meaningful changes: Our uniforms are more inclusive. Our promotion process is more equitable. Our awards and recognition policies now recognize leave without pay for parental leave when counting years of service, and we've removed barriers in our recruitment process for our northern applicants.

These are just a few examples, but together they really do amount to a lot.

We also recently launched the first-ever RCMP equity, diversity and inclusion strategy to guide and measure improvements across the RCMP.

Fourth, we have made a commitment to a modern recruitment process, and we are taking the time to get it right. It starts, obviously, with figuring out who we're trying to attract in 2021. Times have changed, and so have expectations.

The role of a police officer is complex, and we know it requires a wide range of skills. We've worked with external experts to define the attributes and characteristics needed for modern policing. We're identifying new tools to assess the characteristics we're looking for, including screening for things like racist and sexist beliefs, which was brought up by this committee in a previous session.

We have made changes to our recruitment strategies to make sure our recruiters reflect the diversity we seek. We continue to review each part of our recruitment process to make it modern and barrier-free.

Lastly, we made a commitment to building leaders. Leadership and the tone at the top is one of my biggest priorities. Having a more diverse set of leaders around me has been so important. We have started to implement a leader character approach to our leadership development and training.

In the past, we've done a good job at measuring and developing operational skills, but now we need to do the same to help us assess and develop overall character and good judgment. We think the “leader character” model will be a game-changer in ensuring we have the right people doing the right job. It's an approach that we want to integrate from the start with applicants and continue to build throughout our employees' careers.

My vision is an RCMP that attracts great people into a workplace that welcomes and includes them and embraces diversity. This is the key to delivering excellence in our organization.

I've given you just a few examples of where we've implemented real changes. I feel and I see the changes every day. I also acknowledge that there are still key issues to address in our organization and in our society as a whole to achieve equity. The independent assessor touched on a few, such as better support for parents, which is important to women's participation in the workforce and in any sector.

Our vast geography, however, creates even bigger challenges, and it can be hard to find the supports and the resources we need to fully support our employees. We need to have creative solutions, which are not always about more resources but about finding new ways of doing things. For example, we look at different service delivery models that will benefit both communities and our employees, like the fly-in models we use in some northern jurisdictions.

I don't have the full set of solutions here today, but I do know that we won't achieve equity unless we work together and address these larger issues. I am so committed to continue to advance change and modernization, as is my entire senior executive team. I'm committed to listening to the people most affected and continuing to expand that circle.

I am committed to partnering with others to explore what we can do to address these issues, so I do truly welcome your comments, ideas and suggestions. Your expertise and influence will allow my team to find solutions. I look forward to your discussion today.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Commissioner Lucki.

With that, we go to our first round of six minutes each, with Mr. Motz, Madam Khera, Madam Larouche and Mr. Harris, in that order.

Mr. Motz, you have six minutes, please.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Commissioner and Minister, for being here today.

My first question is for the minister.

Minister, you and I share a similar history, in that the leadership of both of the municipal police services that you and I served in answered to and had a governing body—a police services board or a police commission—attached to it. In November, when this report came out, you said that good policing starts with good governance, and I couldn't agree with you more.

Where are you at in that process of implementing good governance within the RCMP?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Motz.

I stand by that comment. I agree that both of us, in our experiences in municipal policing, have experienced, of course, a different governance model. I will tell you that there are ongoing discussions, first of all with respect to indigenous policing. I'm sure you're aware that we are undertaking a process of co-production of the new legislative framework for indigenous policing. At the heart of that discussion and that new legislative framework will be a new governance model for policing in first nations.

There are also ongoing discussions with the contracting of policing jurisdictions in our provinces and territories. A number of those areas are already looking at their own police services act, and there are ongoing discussions among us with respect to new approaches to governance within the RCMP.

One of the things we've heard very clearly that I think speaks to some of the things we've spoken about earlier today is the need for an independent and external review of complaints, but also the new harassment resolution process that we announced. We—

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Minister, thank you. That leads me to my next question.

More specifically, in the report, Justice Bastarache stated that necessary reform within the RCMP will not take place “without external pressure”. You have said that you've already started an external review of the RCMP and that you would have more to say “in the coming weeks”. That was seven months ago, back in November.

Specifically, is there anything you have done in the meantime to start this external review? What exactly does that look like?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Yes, the very first area we began looking at in direct response to the Bastarache report was the establishment of an external review process for complaints of harassment resolution. We've been working very closely with the RCMP in the development of the ICHR. That's a $32-million investment, and $8 million ongoing, in the establishment of new external processes and an independent determination of these measures. It was, I think, the most critical area that needed to be addressed.

We also had to come into compliance with Bill C-65 and the Canada Labour Code. We have placed a priority upon that, but there's ongoing work, as the commissioner outlined.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Minister, I have a couple more questions that I want to cover off. I thank you for that answer.

I wonder if you're able to table some of the documents and consultations you've had and the progress you've made from your ministry and the RCMP with regard to that external review. That would be great.

The other question I have is in relation to many of the allegations within the Bastarache report, which indicate very clearly that there was significant criminality that occurred by members of the RCMP against other members of the RCMP.

Have you ensured that criminal investigations have been initiated or have you encouraged that those investigations be initiated against members of the RCMP who've committed these offences as highlighted by the Bastarache report?

Let's leave it there. I'll let you answer that one first.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

This was an issue that I raised directly with Justice Bastarache because of those very serious allegations, which he did not particularize in his report by naming individuals, out of respect for the victims. As you can imagine, those criminal investigations require that we respect the wishes of the victims in those cases.

Let me also acknowledge to you that I've had a number of discussions with Justice Bastarache as well about the inadequate response in the disciplinary processes to deal with what are clearly egregious behaviours unacceptable within the RCMP. I think it does highlight the need for a more effective and responsive disciplinary process, up to and including criminal investigations and charges where appropriate.

It's also critically important in these matters to respect the wishes of the victims as these matters are resolved, but certainly those behaviours are totally unacceptable and require a very strong response, up to and including dismissal and criminal prosecution.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, sir. I appreciate that.

Justice Bastarache discovered and reported that many of the worst offenders within the RCMP in terms of the misconduct were promoted individuals. He also went on to list that there are 15 serial offenders, as he described them, who are senior officers.

I guess it begs the question: How many of them still remain active within the RCMP, and what direction have you given to ensure that those predators are removed from their posts?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I don't believe anyone who engages in these behaviours has the right to wear the uniform of the RCMP, and they need to be dealt with more effectively. The disciplinary process is, of course, the responsibility of the commissioner, but we've had a number of discussions about bringing greater rigour to that disciplinary process. Perhaps given more time, she could give you an explanation of the work she's doing in that regard.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, Minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Motz.

Mr. Motz asked for documents, and I didn't hear an undertaking to table documents.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

I'm sorry, Chair, if I was remiss in that. I was cognizant of my limited time. I would ask that those documents be tabled to the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

With that, Mr. Fisher, you have six minutes, please.