Public Safety Committee on June 2nd, 2021

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Let's start with you, though, as the minister accountable to Canadians. What are you going to do about it?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I've been working very closely with the RCMP in bringing about reform in the complaints resolution process with respect to complaints resolution. We are working with the RCMP to support the changes that we've asked and directed the commissioner to make in her mandate, and are providing her with the support and resources that she requires to do that.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

You can understand that this seems a bit curious. Canadians would be looking to you for leadership, especially given that, with your government, the Prime Minister and cabinet ministers have shown a certain propensity for having no problem getting involved in the decisions of public prosecutions. However, we'll let your answer stand as it is.

You've mentioned the independent review body being launched on June 30. First of all, I note that when Justice Bastarache was at the committee, which was one month after his report had been made public—it was seven months ago—he hadn't yet spoken to you. I'm glad to hear, as you said in your opening remarks, that somehow you've managed to make that happen in the last seven months. I also note that he said he had spoken to Commissioner Lucki already. He said:

She recognized that there had been a lack of leadership, and she told me of her willingness to address all of these issues and of how she was trying to set up a stronger support for herself in the central administration and even in the supervision.... In that sense, there was a better understanding, I think, within the RCMP of what has to be done.

Just for clarity, that's what Justice Bastarache said about the RCMP response to the report when you had not yet spoken to him.

Can you confirm what you will do, then, to ensure that there is a review, that action is taken and that there are consequences, by either the new body that is being set up or some body, for the 3,000 complaints, 131 legitimate cases and 15 repeat offenders?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

First of all, the government did provide $32 million in funding to establish the ICHR. I've also consulted with the labour ministry with respect to compliance so that we align with the Canada Labour Code's workplace harassment and violence prevention regulations. That is one of my responsibilities. With that budget, Ms. Stubbs—and you may recall voting against it—we did provide them with the resources necessary to do that.

We're continuing the work, and I've had a number of discussions with the commissioner about how to ensure that the ICHR is truly a fully external body. There is some—

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Okay. I'll ask the commissioner—

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

—additional work to be done, but we are moving forward on it.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Thanks, Minister. I'll ask the commissioner about that later. I have another question for you.

I just want to quote from Justice Bastarache's report, on page 48:

Of note are the assaults that took place at the hands of two RCMP doctors. Vulnerable women, applying to the RCMP, their dream career, were subjected to “prostate” rectal exams; their breasts were felt in a lingering and unprofessional manner; they were subjected to unnecessary and gratuitous vaginal “exams”. Nurses were not present. The Assessors were told that some members were aware of the conduct of these doctors and warned applicants about the doctors but that nothing was done to discipline them or to protect the vulnerable young women who were forced to endure these medical examinations.

When I asked Justice Bastarache about that at committee, he said that these doctors were not part of the scope of the report and he was “told by government people that they're going to set up another process like mine for the victims of the two doctors.”

Can you tell me what initiative you have taken to set up and update us on the status of that new process you've created per Justice Bastarache's recommendations to deal with the women who were violated by the doctors?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Yes, and I'm pleased to be able to advise you that we've recently agreed with the RCMP to certify a class action related to women and men who were sexually assaulted during their medical examinations and were not covered under the Merlo Davidson settlement. The matter is taken very seriously. We are looking at all next steps, but we are certifying that class action, as was done with the Merlo Davidson settlement. These matters, as Justice Bastarache indicated, were not covered in that, so we are addressing them through the secondary process.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Thank you.

Specifically what would be the timeline on that?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

We certified the class action, and as you are aware, those things do take some time. However, as well, the RCMP has been informed of this issue with respect to Justice Bastarache's report.

I'm sure the commissioner can inform you about what steps they are taking to ensure that there is no continuation of this totally unacceptable situation, and for those who are victims of that behaviour in the past, we certified a class action in order to deal that appropriately.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, I'm assuming I'm done.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Madam Stubbs, you did very well on the time.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Thanks, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Madam Damoff.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Chair, before we go to my questions, I have a point of order.

I don't know if my Conservative colleague knew that she was doing it when she was, but I suspect there are a number of women watching these proceedings right now. By reading those comments from the Bastarache report, and I know they're public record and we all agree that they're shocking, but it can also be very triggering for women who have survived sexual assault. I just would ask all members to be very careful as to what they're reading out loud or to be mindful in the way they ask questions that we probably have women watching these proceedings who experienced that and might find it triggering.

Thank you, Chair.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Yes. Thank you, member.

Actually, I'll just respond. I thank my colleague for her point. Indeed, it is in a public report. It is important that we talk about specifics and name things when they happen. Also, I would suggest to my colleague that she shouldn't assume that every one of her colleagues on the committee right now in this meeting doesn't know intimately exactly what that's like.

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay. We can settle that point of caution. I don't necessarily regard it as a point of order.

With that, I have a conflict here. Is Madam Damoff or Madam Lambropoulos next?

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Chair, I'm next.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay. You have five minutes, please.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

Commissioner Lucki, you shared a quote with me by Kwame Christian:

The best things in life are on the other side of a difficult conversation. If we can have the conversation in a better way, we can make meaningful change in the world around us.

I don't know that we could be having a more difficult conversation than the one we are having following the Bastarache report.

I applaud the work you've done and the changes in the senior ranks and the independent centre for harassment resolution. I guess my concern is with the rank and file. I just read an article from the CBC that the RCMP has lost 100 indigenous officers over the last three years and there are questions of racism.

I read Janet Merlo's book, and much of the harassment she received when she reported I would call “microaggressions”. How can you ensure that the rank and file of the RCMP are moving along with you? The changes you've made are important, but when we read about these things and we hear about these things, you need to ensure that the rank and file is moving with you.

I just wonder if you could talk about that a bit.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

First and foremost, within the rank and file, part of our initiative involves training, so we have brought in the cultural awareness and humility course. We've brought in trauma-informed approaches to victims, as well as anti-racism training. What is interesting with the anti-racism training is that the only reason we haven't rolled it out is that it's being done by Canadians who have been impacted by racism, so we want to make sure that this is very powerful training. That's part of it: training.

Then, of course, we've rolled out our equity, diversity and inclusion strategy. That is part of my mandate and the objective to change the culture and transform the RCMP. There have been a lot of activities under that umbrella.

We have to make sure, though, that when things happen in the RCMP and people aren't acting in accordance with our core values, they will, in fact, be held accountable. The interesting thing about core values is that we're actually reviewing those core values, and we're reviewing our core mission statement. They are actually building that from the bottom up instead of from the top down, so that there are actually these massive consultation sessions with various employees from all of the rank and file so that they will be part of this.

It's interesting. I didn't think that we would actually make change, but when I see some of the emails I get.... For example, I see that they're talking about “Vision 150 and Beyond”, and they are quoting some of the things we are doing.

I spoke to Linda Davidson. As she's reached out to me, I've reached out to her on several instances. One of the recent ones was with regard to the independent centre for harassment resolution, and I was so happy to hear her comments. We let her review the policy from start to finish and all the parts that are included in that, and she was very pleased with the progress. She felt that it was giving justice to things that weren't there for the RCMP, so that tells me that we're doing something right.

I see it in the tones of the emails. I see it in behaviours, but the statistics, once we start looking at it.... We're not looking at it as far as the statistics right now. We're building those foundations, though, like I said in my opening remarks. When I come and go.... There is nothing worse than doing something and, as soon as I leave, it's gone. No, it's all about the foundation and building that strong so that the next person can continue.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I'm going to stop you there because I also have a quick question for the minister.

I'm pretty sure that Glen Motz would agree with this, but why is it important, Minister, for parliamentarians and ministers of the Crown to not be involved in criminal investigations?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Actually, it's a founding principle of the RCMP and of government. As a police officer myself for 39 years.... No politician, no government, should interfere with determining who should be investigated or what the outcomes of those investigations are.

It is a rather interesting question to put to me, as I spent 39 years of my life conducting criminal investigations, but it's absolutely not my responsibility, and I'm very respectful. I have ministerial responsibility for and oversight of the RCMP, but I do not direct the commissioner or the RCMP in their operations and, in particular, I do not direct criminal investigations or the outcome of those investigations. That is entirely the independent responsibility of the RCMP. It's a fundamental principle of Canadian law.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Madam Damoff.

I want to be respectful of everybody's time. The minister is scheduled to leave in a few minutes.

I think the way we will do this is that Madam Larouche will do two and a half minutes, and Mr. Harris will do two and a half minutes. Then the minister can excuse himself, and we'll continue on with the commissioner.

Ms. Larouche, the floor is yours for two and a half minutes.