Public Safety Committee on June 9th, 2021

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here today and for being patient with us.

Thank you for your evidence. It was really quite shocking in particular to hear about so many of our inmates in structured intervention units not coming within the Mandela guidelines. I'm really quite shocked by that. That 33% would be coming to the definition of torture.

Dr. Doob, you stated in your evidence that you waited a long time for data from CSC but that it finally did come. How reliable is that data? What is the integrity of it?

[Dr. Anthony Doob]

These are administrative data. They're the basic, ongoing records that CSC has of all prisoners, including those in structured intervention units.

Any administrative data I've worked on from the last 50 years has had errors in it, but there's no reason to believe the errors would be in any particular direction. We found some things that were obviously errors, but the story that they tell is consistent. It's consistent across time and locations. You can see certain things that are errors, but we have confidence in those.

Among other things, Correctional Service of Canada is required by law to keep these data. This is nothing new for them. My suspicion is that they simply didn't like what those data told us.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Do you think that was the cause for their delay in getting the data to you?

[Dr. Anthony Doob]

No. The delay came from their not wanting to give us the data. They didn't know at that point what the data really showed. They told me on the phone in February 2020 that they weren't sure if they were going to give us the data because they didn't think we needed the data. It was an absolutely astonishing thing for them to say to us.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Thank you for that. That is quite astonishing.

The last part of Bill C-83 was to get rid of solitary confinement and move over to structured intervention units. Was there more than just a change in format? Was there a substantive improvement at all?

[Dr. Anthony Doob]

The simple answer to that, based on data, is that we don't really know since the data we have date from the beginning of the SIUs on November 30, 2019.

Certainly what we can say is that the bill to abolish the practices, which established the SIUs, did not work. Those practices still exist.

Just to respond to something else that was said by another witness, I will tell you that these problems existed before COVID. There is no way under the sun that you could blame the problems that we have described on COVID.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

All right. Thank you.

I think the other witness said that maybe it was worse because of COVID but not necessarily caused by COVID.

[Dr. Anthony Doob]

Our data would suggest otherwise. Our data would suggest that the problem was fairly consistent. There was variation across institutions and variation in some of the measures, but it would be hard to say that the problems that we've identified are COVID-related problems.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I'm sorry, Mr. Van Popta, you have eight seconds.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

I will concede that to the chair then.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Madam Khera, you have four minutes, please.

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thanks to all our witnesses for being here. First I want to apologize for all the time you had to wait.

Thank you for your testimony. I wish I could ask all of you questions.

Ms. Coyle, I'll start with you.

I want to talk about data collection. We know there is a serious problem in our correctional service system as it relates to sexual coercion and violence. There are certainly many layers to that problem, the reporting and collecting the data of those crimes being one of them.

What can you recommend to ensure that CSC collects the necessary data to help better inform that issue of sexual coercion and violence within the federal prisons?

[Emilie Coyle]

I think we have to step back a moment from that question, because I actually don't have the answer to that. However, I do think what we need is something akin to what's happening right now with the public independent inquiry into sexual misconduct in the military.

I think a public independent inquiry on this issue would be well served, and then recommendations could flow from that.

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you for that.

Would you say that the other programs and resources available to women offenders are adequate, and what needs to change, or what can be improved?

[Emilie Coyle]

They're certainly not adequate. The reason is that there is always a fear of reprisal or that your personal information will be shared with others within the prisons.

One of the recommendations we have is to ensure that there is outside counselling and treatment available for folks who come forward, or who would like to come forward, and some mechanism involved that is separate from the current structure.

I know this is not one of your questions, but I just want to say it would be quite easy for CSC to stop strip searching in federal prisons. The current legislation is permissive; it doesn't say that it has to happen, and there is absolutely no evidence that it currently is doing what it says it's doing. I would make that as another recommendation.

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you. I was going to ask about that, so thank you for bringing that forward and for saving that time.

[Emilie Coyle]

That's great. Thanks.

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Dr. Doob, again, thanks for all the work you do.

In one of your reports, you raised concerns regarding the lack of clarity on meaningful human contact requirements. How do you define “meaningful human contact”, and are there any examples, including from other jurisdictions, internationally, maybe, that can help staff better conceptualize the term?

[Dr. Anthony Doob]

It's not well defined in the legislation, and that is a problem, or certainly would be a problem if CSC were even capable of providing meaningful human contact of any kind to a substantial number of prisoners.

What we're finding is, however it's defined, even CSC is telling us they're not accomplishing it.

My own feeling is that meaningful human contact is something we should be concerned about defining. At least what we have to do is to make sure that people have some form of human contact. Then we can worry about how to make it more meaningful and perhaps more human. At the moment, we're not even getting there. We're not even at the first step, let alone defining how good it is.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You only have about 10 seconds. I apologize.

That's what I seem to be doing all day; I am apologizing.

Welcome to the committee, Ms. Normandin. You may go ahead. You have four minutes.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

I, too, want to apologize. Unfortunately, I missed the first two witnesses' opening statements, so I apologize if any of my questions are redundant or have already been asked.

I have a question about other rights that may have been jeopardized because of the COVID‑19 pandemic. I was wondering about access to counsel. Were any problems flagged in that regard because of the pandemic?

Ms. Latimer, I see you nodding.

[Catherine Latimer]

Yes. We found that access to legal services has diminished during COVID, mainly because there were extremely serious lockdowns. People were confined to their cells for excessive periods of time. They weren't getting the medical treatment that they needed for other underlying conditions. They weren't getting access to counsel.

The internal audit of the CSC indicates that when they did get access to counsel, they were often listened to, so the solicitor-client privilege element was violated. There is a whole slew of human rights abuses that go well beyond solitary confinement, but it has to be one of the most serious, given that it is defined as a form of torture. It's just inconsistent with the values of Canadians that it would be persisting in the way it is.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

If the other witnesses have anything to add, please go ahead.

[Emilie Coyle]

I would like to add that one of the challenges we've seen in the prisons during COVID-19 is a lack of access to private spaces to speak with lawyers. As well, in some of the prisons, people have been asked to submit reasons why they would need to speak with their lawyer, which would certainly go against privilege and confidentiality.

I want to clarify to everybody here that I hope none of the comments I made earlier would suggest that reform is going to change anything in the prisons designated for women. We cannot reform our way out of this particular issue.

I would also point to some of the recommendations made by Louise Arbour in the report on certain incidents at the prison for women to guide this committee's work as well.