Public Safety Committee on June 16th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Are you directing that to Mr. Fogel, or to Mr. Farooq?

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Mr. Farooq.

[Mustafa Farooq]

Unfortunately, I can't fully comment on that. What I will say is that we have been advocating very strongly for the federal government to continue to move forward with things like RCMP oversight, as well as CBSA oversight. Those are critical items that I think everyone agrees need to be refined, especially RCMP oversight, which obviously has been a study of the committee. We think those things are critical and important. A further examination of the efficacy of hate crime units will help us determine how those can be best utilized and mobilized, because there is quite a lot of variability in how hate crime units operate across Canada. I think this has has been noted before. That's why I think these things have to continue to be looked at and explored.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

In the time I have left, I'd like to hear what Mr. Fogel has to say on the subject.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have just under a minute, please.

[Shimon Koffler Fogel]

We too have been advocating for more robust training and resources for law enforcement at the local level, because it's at the community level that they can build the most dynamic relationships with targeted communities, provide the support necessary and gain the intelligence in order to more effectively track things.

There is a whole range of things that I think are tools that law enforcement, prosecutors and the like can receive, which should be a focus of both the Islamophobia and anti-Semitism summits that will be taking place over the next couple of months.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Michaud.

Mr. Harris, you have six minutes, please.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to thank both witnesses for coming before us today. It's difficult to find the words to express the shock we all felt and the concern we all feel about what happened in London last week. I think, Mr. Farooq, you yourself found difficulty expressing the concerns as well. I think the whole country is shocked by this once again, I'm afraid to say. Also, we heard from CIJA, and Mr. Fogel, about the ongoing and increasing incidents of hatred against Jews and the anti-Semitism spreading throughout the country.

I think we are here today because we as a committee felt that it was extremely important for us to hear from you about what concrete actions should be taken that haven't been taken to date and that might go some way to show that this country takes it seriously, that the government has a means of following through on recommendations. We welcome the suggestions you've made thus far.

First of all, I recognize that in 2019, Mr. Farooq, you appeared before the House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights and talked about asking government to fund programs to train police on how to counter hate and lay charges. That seemed to me to be a fairly basic thing that you requested in 2019. Two years later, are you able to say to what extent the government has acted on that recommendation? Have you been able to find out to what extent the government has provided additional funding for programs of this nature?

[Mustafa Farooq]

Unfortunately, I can't comment on the specifics. I don't have those quite in front of me.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

You haven't been updated on that by anyone?

[Mustafa Farooq]

We are obviously continuing to engage with government on these kinds of important questions, and with our colleagues and folks who are in Justice and in Public Safety. I can't comment on the specifics of the question right now. I'm sorry, I just don't have the numbers in front of me.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

One suggestion that has been made is that there be an increase in the availability of programs directly related to hate crimes in each jurisdiction. Is that something you would favour?

[Mustafa Farooq]

I think we have to examine training and oversight as critical components, and we have to examine a study of the efficacy at the same time. These are all critical elements to making sure that we have an appropriate and uniform approach in looking at the way that hate crimes are dealt with by police. Ultimately, though, we have to keep in mind that we're not going to fully get to solving this problem by policing our way out of the problem.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I'm sorry, I just wanted to point out to Mr. Harris that Mr. Fogel has his hand up.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Mr. Fogel, would you like to answer that?

[Shimon Koffler Fogel]

Yes, and thank you, Mr. Chair, as well.

Further to a point that Mustafa raised earlier about the multi-jurisdictional nature of the challenge and the remedies to that, the challenge that you face at the federal level is that you have limits on what you can do directly, and then can only advise or urge or call on different levels of government to follow through with the other things.

I would respectfully make a suggestion here, and it's not a formal recommendation, but I think it should inform the committee's thinking. One of the real take-aways of their consideration of this challenge is how to better achieve a synergy among the different levels of government so that there could be a much more coherent and comprehensive approach, where each level of government is doing what it is mandated to do in order to advance the overall objective.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Would you hold out hopes for this summit, then, to try to sort out some of these things? One thing the federal government could do, if it identifies hate crimes as a significant priority and has the ability to respond to that, is properly fund dedicated hate crime units in the communities where it's deemed necessary. Would you expect or hope the federal government to play that role, because it seems to be an important thing that if they're going to have specialized units, there will be special resources needed for that?

[Shimon Koffler Fogel]

I think the federal government can allocate resources, but it ultimately will be mostly up to provincial and municipal governments to deploy them in ways that are effectively going to advance that. Look, attorneys general have to be more aggressive about applying the existing Criminal Code provisions—that's a provincial thing. There are educational components that all of us recognize are valuable, and that's going to be more at the municipal level. I think that the central role of the federal government is as a conveyor, as an authority that brings together the different stakeholders at multiple levels of government—as well as the private sector, because we shouldn't ignore the role, for example, of social media platforms in advancing this.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unfortunately, we're going to have to leave it there. That's the end of our six-minute round, Mr. Harris.

With that, we begin the second round of five minutes with Mr. Motz, please.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you specifically to our witnesses for your amazing testimony. I really appreciate your views on the terminology being used to describe various types of extremism. The consistent message in all of this is hatred. That's the motivation behind all of the violence that we're seeing, whether it be hatred towards political views, towards religious groups, or hatred attached to certain ideologies. I thank you for boiling it down to what it really is as hatred.

I want to go back to my colleague Ms. Stubbs' question about some of the changes to Bill C-59. Both of your groups testified before the public safety committee on that. Some of the things that have changed and were very contentious were the removal of the propaganda and advocacy of terrorism as a criminal charge, and the limitation of security and intelligence or surveillance of protesters in anti-government demonstrations.

Now, you didn't get a chance to respond to that question, both Mr. Fogel and Mr. Farooq.

Should this legislation be revisited with a view to strengthening and actually dealing with the issues—as you both identified in your opening remarks and subsequent testimony—that have created more issues and more ongoing hatred online as a result? I ask because really, law enforcement ability to respond appropriately has been somewhat muted as a result.

[Shimon Koffler Fogel]

With your permission, Mr. Chair, I'll quickly begin and make the following observation.

I think the pace of change in the landscape or backdrop with which we're looking at these issues is breathtaking. The idea that it behooves us to review those instruments, policies, regulations and legislation that are currently in place on a regular basis is one that I think is self-evident.

We never would of thought, even two years.... I mean, smart phones only came into existence at the end of 2012. It's really only now that we're beginning to appreciate the power of social media as a vehicle either for good or, in this context, something very, very not good. So I think that it does behoove us to look at old legislation, old regulations and old approaches, and test them against the reality of today.

I'll also point out that, for example, in a concrete way, we're always trying to balance—and I know your committee is struggling with balancing—the issue of free speech with freedom from threat. Some of you will recall that there was a contentious debate about section 13. It was ultimately eliminated by the government of the day, because it is a two-edged sword. On the one hand it enshrines the notion we all believe in, which is freedom of expression. On the other hand, it's also been used as a way to insulate groups that are trying to foment hate with protection from the very thing we're trying to prevent.

It's adding work to your plate, but I think it behooves you to routinely build into legislation and recommendations a need for periodic review that would test the reality against what you are trying to achieve.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you.

Mr. Farooq.

[Mustafa Farooq]

I'll say briefly that I think Shimon is right, as I think he often is, on the critical tension here between a desire to protect folks versus those critical constitutional values that we uphold and know that we need to be upheld.

I think those are exactly the kinds of reasons that we had concerns around overly broad language vis-à-vis terrorist propaganda. We were pleased to see that the most recent iteration of legislation narrowed it down to a more focused “counselling” offence. We thought that was important.

From our perspective, we want to see the legislation applied equally, but that's not the same as seeing.... As in the sense that white supremacist terrorist group should be dealt with appropriately through the listing provisions that are there, we have to careful about overexpanding our Criminal Code, especially around terrorism sections. I think there are existing tools that need to be utilized, and if there are other ways of approaching white supremacist groups, such as the creation of a new listing procedures, I think that could be done outside of the precise mechanics of terrorism legislation, which, of course, has with it a whole regulatory and legislative set of considerations to deal with.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay.

I apologize again for cutting both of you off in the middle of important statements.

Madam Khera, you have five minutes please.

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to both the National Council of Canadian Muslims and the Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs not only for joining us here today but also, importantly, for all the work that you do and for your moving and heartbreaking testimonies today.

I know that the last few weeks have been immensely difficult for so many members of our communities. I know that our communities are hurting, and we are hurting with them. Certainly, this senseless act of terrorism that took the lives of four innocent Canadians in London and left a nine-year-old in critical condition has shaken the whole community and our country, and I just want to first give my condolences to the Afzaal family and prayers for young Fayez and the entire community during this difficult time.

Mr. Farooq, you talked about the terrorist attack in London, Ontario, the attack on the Black Muslim woman wearing a hijab in Edmonton, and the incident at the Islamic Institute of Toronto. These events aren't isolated incidents. These incidents continue to show us that white supremacy and Islamophobia exist in our communities and pose a huge risk to public safety. I know that we all have a role to play in fighting Islamophobia. I know that our government has taken steps in the work that we're doing through Canada's anti-racism strategy, from the work we're doing in adding white supremacists groups such as Proud Boys to Canada's terrorist listing, increasing funding to protect places of worship and communities' spaces, and now leading the national summit on combatting all forms of hate, including Islamophobia, which I know the NCCM has advocated that we do. These are all steps in the right direction. However, from your perspective, what could we specifically do right now to combat Islamophobia, discrimination and hatred in all their forms—whether online or offline and which pose such a big threat to our communities—to ensure that nothing like what happened in London ever happens again in our communities?