Public Safety Committee on June 21st, 2021

[Emilie Coyle]

Thank you for that question.

I think a zero-tolerance policy is aspirational and not what is happening in practice. I think that goes with most of the comments about what happens in prisons, especially if you're coming from the lens of what's happening at headquarters versus what's actually happening in the prisons.

We really have to take that into consideration when we hear from people about what's happening in the prisons. Who are you actually hearing from? Are you hearing from someone who thinks this is how it's supposed to look and this is what the legislation is and these are the rules? How is it actually happening on the ground, practically speaking?

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

The chair is going to cut us off in a minute and a half.

[Emilie Coyle]

Okay, I'm trying really hard to get there, but I think that's an important piece for us to remember going into these discussions.

First of all, I think there needs to be—and this is really important when it comes to sexual violence and coercion perpetrated by staff on prisoners—an independent public inquiry, because we don't have enough information about what's happening and we need that information.

The second thing we can do is to stop strip searching, which is state-sanctioned violence. We don't need it. We can stop it right now. It isn't serving its purpose at all.

The third thing that I would recommend is to have access to outside mental health counselling for anyone who wants to come forward with allegations of sexual assault. They won't trust Correctional Service of Canada staff. They need to have outside mental health counselling.

I think those are the three most important points.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Emilie, can those things be done by the commissioner, or do we need legislation to do them?

I guess I'm asking what we can act on tomorrow.

[Emilie Coyle]

On strip searching, the legislation that exists has very permissive language. It says it “may” happen. It doesn't say that strip searches have to happen. That's something that can be done relatively easily, without legislation. I think that would be the one I would look to. I wouldn't want it replaced with something that would be equally as invasive or—

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Sorry. Really quickly, in 2008, there were 800 people in segregation. There are 190 now, which is still too many. There are very few women. Do you know how many there are in SIUs right now? At one point it was about five.

[Emilie Coyle]

It changes all the time. In fact, we were at a meeting with the Correctional Service of Canada about SIUs last week, and the number of people in the SIUs changed from Thursday to Friday, so I actually don't know that number at the moment.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Ms. Michaud, you have two minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Of course, I started with the COVID‑19 situation in federal prisons, because that's what has been in the news this year.

However, there's another extremely disturbing situation, which is part of the motion that was introduced: the reports of sexual coercion and violence in federal prisons. The Correctional Investigator of Canada's report was quite clear. He pointed out that there is a genuine culture of silence. He clearly said that this issue is never, or almost never, discussed in the public eye. I wonder why that is.

My question is for Mr. Wilkins of the Union of Canadian Correctional Officers and any other witnesses who have something to say about this culture of silence. What needs to be done to talk more about it and find solutions?

I invite the witnesses to respond to my question.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have one minute, please.

[Jeff Wilkins]

In reviewing the correctional investigator's report, I noted it talks about inmate-on-inmate sexual violence. Of course, this is something that has happened throughout the history of time. I'm sure that growing up we have all seen memes like “don't drop the soap in the shower if you go to prison”. Of course, this is something that has been a reality for longer than my career. I also noted in that correctional investigator's report that there was one instance of reported sexual assault from a staff member in a span of four or five years.

We certainly do not condone any type of sexual abuse or coercion from any staff member towards an inmate, but the focus here is on how you can put a stop to it inside of the institutions, and—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I feel badly, Mr. Wilkins. I keep cutting you off, but I have no choice. I'm sorry about that.

Mr. Green, you have two minutes.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Under the basic principles, rule 1 of the Mandela rules talks about how “All prisoners shall be treated with respect due to their inherent dignity and value as human beings.” Rule 2 is that “The present rules shall be applied impartially” and “There shall be no discrimination on the grounds of race, colour, sex, language, religion” and so on.

However, in testimony, Mr. Doob expressed that Black inmates are subjected to this cruel and unusual punishment—this torture of solitary confinement—for longer periods of time.

If I can get one thing out of this committee, through you, Mr. Chair, to Mr. Doob, what remedy would you have to help dismantle the inherent anti-Black racism within this regime?

[Dr. Anthony Doob]

I don't have a simple answer to that question. The problem is that we're dealing with a description that CSC has given us. We can identify the problem, but I don't have simple solutions to suggest to you.

I think that the first thing that needs to be done on all of these matters is that CSC has to acknowledge the fact that they exist there and work toward changing the situation.

I do have a suggestion—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

With specificity, would it be to acknowledge the inherent anti-Black racism in the extended period of time they're given in detainment?

[Dr. Anthony Doob]

Whether they acknowledge it as such or whether they acknowledge the fact that the lengths of time do vary is at least a start.

At the moment, remember that we don't even have an acknowledgement that there are any problems whatsoever that are not caused by prisoners in the SIUs. I think it's important that we start by acknowledging what the problems are.

I do have some suggestions on where they might start. The variation that we see across institutions is a good place to start. It's not as if there are any institutions that are wonderful, but there are institutions that are much worse than others. If we could find that some institutions are doing things better, maybe we could learn from those differences and move on.

Remember, what we're looking for.... Jane Sprott and I are sitting in separate offices in Toronto working with CSC administrative data. I would have hoped, had there been proper oversight of the SIUs, that a panel like the one that I chaired and was unsuccessful in—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I too am unsuccessfully chairing a committee—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

On a quick point of order, Mr. Chair, could I request that he provide the remainder of his statements in writing to the committee for our consideration at a later time?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Absolutely.

Again, I apologize to everyone. I see Ms. Latimer's anxious to answer a question here, but I'm going to have to move on and go to Mr. Motz for four minutes.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, Chair. I'm actually going to defer to my colleague, Mr. Kurek.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for joining us here today.

Mr. Wilkins, I'm proud to represent a large region of east central Alberta that includes the Drumheller Institution. I've certainly worked with and heard from many correctional officers, so I've heard about some of the challenges related to COVID.

My question is specifically about vaccines and some of the concerns I've heard. At any point did the Correctional Service of Canada consult with the UCCO about their vaccination strategy?

[Jeff Wilkins]

Absolutely. They did after they announced that they would be procuring vaccines for staff members in the institution. Since the beginning of the pandemic, what UCCO-SACC-CSN has been calling for is that once a vaccine was available, it should be offered in the institution for both the staff and the inmates because of our close-quarter working environments and the fact that we're a communal living facility. When we put the onus onto the provinces, we see differences across regions as to who is going to get vaccinated first.

Our members are performing as the first responder group of all occupations. We're firefighters, paramedics and police inside the institution. We're often in very close quarters with inmates and with each other. It was very important to us that our members were given priority.

We engaged on many fronts about being a priority. Finally we were consulted once vaccine had been procured for the institution and staff.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thanks for that.

I think that one of the frustrations that I certainly heard from Correctional Service officers, members of the UCCO, is that they were in the precarious position of having to assist with the administration of vaccines to inmates and had seen nurses and other health care professionals who had received theirs, but they were not prioritized in the same way. Is that an accurate perception, from your point of view?

[Jeff Wilkins]

Absolutely. That's because the initial vaccine rollout was conducted by each of the provinces, and the provinces made their determinations based on the NACI guidelines, and they were different, of course, and rightly so. Health care providers need to be given priority, but we're also providing health care in the institutions, so it was very confusing to us that we weren't listed under that communal living category and made priority number one in the provinces. Of course, with the influx of vaccines now, there have been vaccines in the institutions.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Although the final surplus was much delayed, I would suggest that it has certainly alleviated a lot of these challenges. However, I know from speaking to Correctional Service members that there's a great deal of frustration about both the work they were doing within the institution and also the perception of how things were being managed at the institution from the community. In many cases, officers live in the community or nearby. I'm paraphrasing, but one basically said, “The public information coming out of the institution is false. They're lying to us.” Those were the words I heard.

Now, that's specific to an institution that I represent. I've spoken to a number of colleagues who likewise represent other institutions. I was concerned to hear—