Evidence of meeting #37 for Public Safety and National Security in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was inmates.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4 p.m.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Thank you.
Actually, I'm wondering if your members felt safe going to work, although they may have been short-staffed.
Is that one of the reasons they asked for a bonus recognizing them as essential workers? What happened with that request, was it heard?
4 p.m.
National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers
We received a preliminary answer through the National Joint Council just last Tuesday that the government has done an extensive analysis on hazard pay for federal public servants. The answer is that, no, it will not be provided, which is incomprehensible to me. The provinces are being subsidized to have that recognition. Colleagues in corrections in the provinces are receiving these types of allowances.
What is really astounding is that if a staffing crisis developed to the point that we didn't have correctional officers to report to the workplace, the MOU or the contingency would be to call the military in to do our jobs. The military would come in to do our jobs. When the military went into the long-term care facilities to staff them, they received an allowance, so the ironic thing is that if the military came in to our jobs, they would receive an allowance for the jobs that we do not receive an allowance for.
4 p.m.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
It's unbelievable to hear that. I imagine that members must feel somewhat undervalued when a request like that falls on deaf ears.
My next question is, do staff members feel prepared to deal with another pandemic? It's not going to be tomorrow morning, because we're not out this yet and the challenges still remain, it seems.
In what ways can Correctional Service Canada provide support and improvements, even beyond the issue of wages or working conditions?
4 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Unfortunately, there is no time left to answer that question, Mr. Wilkins, but I'm sure you can work it in.
I believe Mr. Green is here to replace Mr. Harris. Mr. Green, you have six minutes.
4 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I appreciate the opportunity to sub in today on this very important topic, particularly as it relates to recent reports on the use of solitary confinement.
I'll share with this committee—this being my first time here—my very personal connections to this topic. I think everybody would likely know somebody who, at some point in time, has been incarcerated. I myself know many people, some of whom are families, who have been incarcerated and subjected to what I would call the cruel and unusual punishment of solitary confinement.
I would like to begin by asking about the ways in which biased risk assessments are used in prison, and perhaps I'll have Ms. Sprott share ways in which they might disproportionately affect Black and indigenous inmates.
4 p.m.
Dr. Jane Sprott Professor, Department of Criminology, Ryerson University, As an Individual
With respect to the biased risk assessments, there might be someone on this panel who is better able to talk about them than I am.
What we were looking at in the function of the SIUs was whether or not the Correctional Service of Canada was implementing the legislation. We found that overall, 38% of stays were qualifying, by the Mandela rules, as solitary confinement or torture.
That was the starting point to try to understand why that was happening. We never received a response from the Correctional Service of Canada. Maybe they already knew about it, so they didn't think it was worthy of a response.
With regard to the biased risk assessments, I think there are a fair number of court challenges and findings around those assessments with regard to security classifications. I think that is quite well known, but others on the panel could probably talk about that issue more generally than I could.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Sorry, Mr. Green. I see that Mr. Doob has his hand up. Do you wish to hear from him?
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Yes, please. Thank you.
Thank you for that response, Professor Sprott.
4:05 p.m.
Dr. Anthony Doob Professor Emeritus, Centre for Criminology and Sociolegal Studies, University of Toronto, As an Individual
I think what you might want to consider is that Black prisoners are overrepresented in the SIUs, so they're overrepresented in the Correctional Service of Canada to begin with. About 30% of prisoners in CSC facilities are Black, and close to 40% are going into the SIUs.
Going back to the risk assessment issue, the problem is that what we know about risk assessment is that the validity of the risk assessment seems to vary with the group. We know quite well that the risk assessment tools that are used by CSC do not work well for women and do not work well for indigenous people. I have less information about whether they work as well or as badly for Blacks as they do for others, but I think it's fair to say that in this sense what we don't know is very important.
As Professor Sprott just pointed out, the difficulty is that these things are not being looked at by the Correctional Service of Canada. They are, in a sense, largely being ignored. Even the issue of the overrepresentation of Blacks in the SIUs or the fact that Blacks are spending more time in the SIUs is not something the Correctional Service of Canada itself ever talks about.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Mr. Doob, can you also provide an analysis with regard to indigenous inmates, as I understand that they are perhaps even more overrepresented statistically in Canada?
4:05 p.m.
Professor Emeritus, Centre for Criminology and Sociolegal Studies, University of Toronto, As an Individual
Well, they are certainly overrepresented in the Correctional Service of Canada. They're highly represented in the institutions and in the SIUs. I think the treatment in the SIUs between the two disadvantaged groups—Blacks and indigenous people—actually does vary. Some of our analysis would suggest that indigenous people are spending about the same amount of time, I believe, as the rest of the population in the SIUs once they get there. Indigenous people are more likely to get there in the first place.
I think what you have to consider is that each of these groups in a sense is being treated in different kinds of ways. All of them seem to be subject to the same kind of treatment, which is outside of what is contemplated by the legislation, to the point that we weren't able to find any groups that were being treated in the same way that the legislation would suggest they should be.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
4:05 p.m.
Emilie Coyle Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
Thank you for that question. I think it's a really important one.
In the prisons designated for women across the country, because they're multi-level prisons, they have max, medium and minimum security, and we certainly see what are called the “max pods”. In those max pods, you see an over-classification, an overrepresentation, of indigenous women and gender-diverse folks.
In these pods, you have about three to five people who are on the same ranges day after day and have very little access to the rest of the prison. We really liken the treatment of those prisoners to the treatment of those who are found in other solitary confinement-like situations, just to bring that to your attention.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Unfortunately, Mr. Green is going to have to leave it there.
Colleagues, we have 25 minutes in the next round of questioning and we have 20 minutes before we have to move on, so I'm going to be a bit arbitrary and ask if Mr. Van Popta, instead of doing five minutes, will do four, and if Mr. Green and Madame Michaud will do one minute each instead of one and a half.
With that, Mr. Van Popta, you have four minutes, please.
June 21st, 2021 / 4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Tako Van Popta Conservative Langley—Aldergrove, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Dr. Doob, I was very shocked by your testimony the other day when you said that the application of our SIU operations in some cases falls within the internationally recognized categories of torture. You pointed out that the problem is more severe in the Pacific region than in, for example, the Ontario region.
In your evidence—and I'm quoting from the record—you also stated: “I never thought that in my career as a criminologist I would be comparing torture rates in institutions under the control of the Government of Canada.”
Could you expand on that, particularly with the comparison of the Pacific region to other parts? I'm from the Pacific region. That's why I'm interested.
4:10 p.m.
Professor Emeritus, Centre for Criminology and Sociolegal Studies, University of Toronto, As an Individual
We took the definitions from the Mandela rules. We gave what we would consider to be a very conservative threshold for defining something as either solitary confinement or torture, so our numbers are probably lower than most people would have put them. We then looked at how many prisoners were in each of these regions and the proportion or the rate per thousand prisoners for this kind of treatment. We did find, as you already said in your question, enormous variability across regions. I think it's important.
Remember that the terms “solitary confinement” and “torture” are in effect technical definitions drawn from the Mandela rules. Here Jane Sprott and I are, criminologists talking about torture rates in different regions in our country. We found it rather disturbing that when we looked to see whether anybody had calculated torture rates in western countries, we weren't able to find them.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Tako Van Popta Conservative Langley—Aldergrove, BC
Thank you for that.
The structured intervention units program requires meaningful human contact for a certain period of time every day. My question is whether there is any agreement about what “meaningful human contact” means and whether the inmate's opinion counts for anything in coming to that definition.
4:10 p.m.
Professor Emeritus, Centre for Criminology and Sociolegal Studies, University of Toronto, As an Individual
I think the answer to that is fairly simple. We used the definition that the Correctional Service of Canada does for those activities. It is very broad and very vague. When we did that, using CSC's own assessment as to whether time out of cell was meaningful human activity, we found that they were not meeting the criteria outlined in the legislation.
The question, I think, is a very important one, but it would be more important if people were getting their meaningful human contact in a majority of cases. Then I think we would quite properly want to look to see what that consisted of. The problem for Jane Sprott and me is that we're dealing with administrative data. We're taking their story, CSC's assessment, at face value. Even taking it at face value, they are falling far short of what they are supposed to be doing, so—
4:10 p.m.
Professor Emeritus, Centre for Criminology and Sociolegal Studies, University of Toronto, As an Individual
—we don't have to get to their question.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Unfortunately, we will have to leave it there, Mr. Van Popta.
Madam Damoff, you have four minutes, please.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Thank you, Chair.
To all of our witnesses, thank you for all the work that you do. UCCO and USJE, I would like to thank you for the work you are doing in our institutions. The men and women who work in our prisons do fine work.
However, Mr. Wilkins, I will say that I visited Edmonton max. I had a tour of one of the cells. UCCO was present when I visited. There were no TVs or PlayStations. I was told that they were not even allowed books because of suicide risks. I just want to clarify what I saw at Edmonton max.
I just finished listening to a podcast called Life Jolt , about women at Grand Valley. One of the women who had returned to prison was put in segregation because she was going through drug withdrawal. That's not the right place for people. Now, I will tell you that I worked on Bill C-83. I was actually the one who introduced the amendment for an independent external decision-maker. I was extremely hopeful that things would work, and Dr. Doob and Professor Sprott, thank you for the work you are doing. I do still think we can get there.
My question—I have only four minutes—is actually for the Elizabeth Fry organization.
Emilie, could you give us recommendations concerning sexual violence in the prisons? It's something that you've done a report on. We know that there is a zero tolerance policy at CSC, but it is still happening. Could you perhaps tell us both what we need to do legislatively and also what the commissioner can do without legislation?