Public Safety Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2020

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

These are not military-style assault rifles. You and I both know that.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay. I appreciate that vigorous exchange.

With that, we're going to move on to Madam Damoff, for five minutes, please.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Chair. My turn has come up sooner than I thought.

Minister, I think I'll direct this one to you.

I've been made aware of a few older studies from 2010 to 2015 on body-worn cameras. I had a group from my riding meet with your staff last week and they had some more recent data, in particular a 2019 study from the Metro DC police. It's the largest scale randomized study of body-worn cameras to date. The conclusion was that body-worn cameras “have very small and statistically insignificant effects on police use of force in civilian complaints”.

I know there's a pilot project happening right now in Iqaluit. I'm concerned that we could be spending money on something that could be better spent on actually transforming policing, things like enhancing indigenous policing. Here I'm thinking of the pilots like the one in Toronto at Native Family and Child Services—which is based on the one at Kwanlin Dün—to deal with urban indigenous policing issues, or mental health support.

Are we treating Iqaluit as a pilot and actually looking at the data, or have we made a commitment to body cameras for all of the RCMP?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you very much. It's an important question.

Pam, I want to be really clear. We're not talking about body cameras as a panacea and a response to the myriad of issues and concerns that have been identified. One of the concerns that we heard very clearly is the need for accountability. There is a very strongly held belief, and I believe there is evidence for it, that the best evidence of a transaction or an interaction between the police and any citizen is video evidence. We've seen the value of that video evidence. It has revealed cases that otherwise would never have come to light. Ensuring that there is an accurate record of that interaction is an important element of accountability.

However, the camera in and of itself doesn't do anything unless we also have regimes of fulsome accountability that are transparent, fair and timely. In earlier discussions, we talked about the importance of putting those systems in place. We're absolutely committed to putting in a far more robust system of oversight and accountability, and making sure there is the best evidence of those transactions is also an element of that.

There is also some suggestion I believe that when there is an accurate record of the interaction between the police and the public, people tend to behave a little better—ideally. I think that's hopeful.

We saw some of those terrible tragedies in the United States. For example, the George Floyd incident likely would not have come to the public's attention without the video evidence that was available. That, quite frankly, has changed the world and changed our society. Video evidence is compelling, and I believe it is the basis for very strong reform.

I want to assure you that we've been working with Iqaluit, with the territories and the provinces. I believe there are a number of measures that we can take.

I also want to assure you that although body cameras are one element of improving accountability, they do not take the place of all of the other important work—of improving training, hiring, and the relationship building and the work we must do in communities to connect with people. That involves a number of different policing models, and, as I mentioned, a new legislative framework for dealing with indigenous policing. There's a great deal of work to do.

Although it's one element, I think there's value in the body-cam rollout. We're seeing that in police jurisdictions right across Canada, and it will include the RCMP. However, it's not all that we need to do. Certainly, it's not in any way an alternative, but in addition to the things that need to happen.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have a little less than a minute.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thanks, Minister.

I guess I go back to my question about Colten Boushie, though, because if we can't get reports back when there are issues and complaints that come forward.... I know you're as frustrated with that as I am, Minister.

I'll turn the rest of my time over to Ms. May.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Pam, if I can respond very quickly to that, I agree. For complaint systems to be fair and actually serve people, they have to be objective; they have to be fair and timely. It's not fair to the complainant and it's not fair to the police officer to have these matters unresolved for an almost indefinite period of time.

We'll bring forward.... I know that the commissioner and the CRCC chair are working on new timelines, but I believe we may require legislative and regulatory amendment that compels people to get that done on time.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Damoff

Ms. Stubbs, you have five minutes, and I hoped to squeeze a question in from Ms. May towards the end of this final round.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Thanks, Chair. I'll try to speak speedily, although I know it's a lot worse for the translators.

Minister, I have a quick question, because corrections is under your mandate.

In the latest correctional investigator's report, he raised serious concerns about euthanasia in prisons. He called on the government to stop the practice altogether. Today he was at the committee and said he is deeply disturbed by three instances that he said should never have happened.

You responded to the report, but you didn't make a commitment on that exact recommendation. I just wonder, yes or no, if you plan to implement it.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

First of all, to be clear, the correctional investigator pointed out very serious concerns with medical assistance in dying that took place within the institution. He believed that it wasn't appropriate. I agree with him, and we'll together take steps to ensure that people who require that assistance receive it in a health facility and not inside a prison.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Following-up some of the questions by our colleague Ms. Michaud, you answered in part about declarations of workers who are essential.... I want to tell you from the ground that there is confusion and inconsistency, even about those decisions.

For example, I have a constituent who is a pilot. He came with another pilot from exactly the same conference, from exactly the same state. They came to the border. One was arbitrarily determined to be essential, and the other wasn't. They literally travelled together. There still seem to be problems even in that area.

In addition, when billionaire Uline executives were granted access to Canada and exempted from the quarantine restrictions in August, you said that the CBSA had made a mistake. You said, “A decision was made by officers based on the information provided. Entry should not have been permitted.”

Could you tell us what specific direction or guidance you subsequently gave CBSA to prevent decisions that you said were mistakes?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Unfortunately, it was incorrectly reported. When you asked me the question, suggesting that a national interest exemption had been granted in that case, it wasn't true. It was, in fact, a decision made by the border services officer. I wonder if the president of CBSA, John Ossowski, can talk a bit about the direction he gave to his officers in response to that case.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

That's okay, Minister. I'll move on to a couple more questions for you. Because you had said it was a mistake, I had wondered what directions you had given.

For more clarity, last week, when I asked about the UPS executive coming to Canada, your colleague, Minister Champagne, said that exemptions are granted after extensive consultations with Global Affairs, along with public health agencies, the provinces and territories.

On the one hand, there seems to be an assertion that decisions are made individually by CBSA agents on a case-by-case basis. The other minister, however, says they are made after extensive consultations with multiple groups. I guess it's fair for Canadians to be confused.

I have questions about Canadian citizens themselves, and a couple of examples. Canadians who make a wrong turn and end up at the border are being forced to quarantine when they turn around and go home. Canadians who simply need to deal with a visa issue are given papers saying that they were never in the U.S.A, but CBSA still instructs them to put their plans on hold and quarantine for 14 days.

A colleague told me about an elderly man who went too far and ended up at a border crossing by mistake. The U.S. border officials politely told him to turn around. He didn't leave his car, but when he came to the CBSA officials, he was told to go home and quarantine for 14 days.

It's fair for Canadians to be asking specifically for clarity about the double standard and the inconsistency. Why are elite American billionaires granted quarantine exemptions and are able to travel the country freely, yet Canadian citizens, in a variety of situations, are being told to put their lives on hold and to quarantine in their homes?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

First of all, there are no billionaires that are given carte blanche exemptions. In the vast majority of cases, whenever there is a national interest exemption.... I'll give you an example of one I granted. There was an American citizen who had to come to Canada. She was the victim of a very serious sexual assault and had to come here to testify against her accuser; otherwise, the court was going to lose jurisdiction. That was an Alberta case. I issued a national interest exemption for that person to come into the country. We put in place, with the regional and provincial health authority and the Public Health Agency of Canada, a very rigorous regime for that individual to follow to make sure that Canadians were not put at risk.

I also want to assure you that, with respect to those individuals who left Canada and were then turned back, we resolved the issue by an order in council that was effective October 31, two days ago, and now those individuals will be able to return without going into quarantine, unless they got out and were exposed on the American side, in which case we'll take whatever steps are necessary to protect the health and safety of Canadians.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We'll have to leave it there.

Ms. Khera, you have five minutes.

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. My question is for Commissioner Kelly.

We had Dr. Zinger before this committee just an hour ago testifying on his annual report. His report was quite appalling in showcasing the unfortunate reality of correctional services. He was very critical of inmates' lack of access to credible educational and vocational resources, as it impedes their ability to find meaningful work upon completion of their sentences.

Can you talk about the educational and vocational opportunities that are currently provided? What is your plan to incorporate some of his recommendations?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Commissioner Kelly.

[Anne Kelly]

For us, obviously, education, vocational training and employment are key factors for the safe and successful reintegration of offenders.

I just want to share with you that, of the offenders who have an identified need for an upgrade to their education, when we look at 2017-2018 and up to now, the percentage has actually been increasing. It's the same for the offenders with an identified need for vocational training. Our percentages have been increasing.

The other good thing is that when we look at the results related to an upgrade in education prior to the end of the sentence for indigenous offenders, that also has been increasing. For indigenous offenders it's actually 74%, compared to 65% for non-indigenous offenders. This is certainly an increase. The same applies to women. There's been an increase from 64.7% to 80%.

I heard what the OCI had to say. Definitely we offer a number of kinds of vocational training, with third party certification. I do want to stress that in 2019-20, it was probably the most we've offered. Almost 18,000 certifications were earned by male offenders, of which 5,000 were for indigenous men. There were 2,500 for women, of which 1,000 were for indigenous women.

Our vocational certifications cover a significant breadth of types of employment. There are certifications for safety, construction, horticulture and manufacturing. Definitely CORCAN is working very hard to expand the breadth of services we can offer.

There's another thing we're looking at and are quite excited about. We discussed it at our executive committee just two weeks ago. It's to establish a virtual approach to deliver critical CSC correctional programs digitally. Certainly COVID-19 has shown us that we need to move more into digital services. Definitely CSC has its challenges, but this is where we're moving to.

We're also ready to launch a digital education pilot at one of our Ontario institutions. I will admit that it's been in the works for quite some time, but now it's going to be launched. I'm looking forward to the results, because this is something we're going to be looking at expanding.

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have one minute.

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

My next question is for Commissioner Lucki.

Commissioner, perhaps I alluded to this the last time you were here, but we've had a significant number of witnesses who talked about this.

There have been many calls for the reconstruction of the RCMP to remove contract policing. We've certainly heard this call from numerous witnesses, who mentioned that the RCMP is too big, that it has too many roles, which makes it difficult, if not impossible, to govern, and that the RCMP needs to get out of contract policing.

We have seen disappointing shortcomings in this, even just recently in the RCMP's failed approach to advancing indigenous reconciliation. In fact, we have seen quite the opposite.

Could you comment on whether you think the current RCMP contracting model is a good idea, considering your mandate to advance indigenous reconciliation, or whether you think it should be removed?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unfortunately, that question took us down to about three seconds for the answer, which probably would mean an unsatisfactory response. We'll have to ask that question at some other point.

Madame Michaud, you have two and a half minutes.

Mr. Harris, you have two and a half minutes. I'm going to try to get Madam May in for two and a half minutes, as well. That should pretty well do it.

Madame Michaud.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I agree less with my Conservative colleagues on your commitment to firearms. You promised to ban assault weapons, but we see that some models are still on sale. I am thinking, for example, of the Remington ACR, which has aspects quite similar to the AR-15. There's also the SKS, which looks a lot like the AK-47, except that it has a fixed magazine. These weapons are still unrestricted at the moment, and many others fall between the regulatory cracks.

The problem is that your government has chosen to legislate on the most popular or frequently used weapons, instead of clearly defining what assault weapons are and banning them all at once. You are reacting to tragedies, such as the one that occurred in Nova Scotia, instead of acting preventatively and taking the time to do the right thing.

By banning the most frequently used models, people may turn to other models that can do the job just as well. Don't you think this makes your measure completely useless?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Minister, your mute button is on.