Public Safety Committee on Nov. 25th, 2020

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you for your important question. As we indicated, we will be reintroducing legislation that does a number of things, including providing us with a legislative framework for firearms—

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Minister, you've explained exactly what this is supposed to do, which we know is a failure. I'm asking specifically for numbers. Do you have the numbers on the total cost for Canadians of this buyback program?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you, Glen. That actually will be provided when we bring forward the legislation that is required to facilitate how we deal with those firearms that have been prohibited.

By the way, Glen, you characterized it as a failure. I couldn't disagree with you more. That's—

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Okay. You're not answering my question. I'm sorry, Minister. I'm talking about costs. You're not answering my question on costs. I'll move on to my next question.

If you're going to put a budget together, obviously you're going to have some idea of what these things are. Can you provide us with an estimate of what the administration costs for the RCMP and your public safety department will be to run this program? Do you have any idea whatsoever?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you very much, Glen. Actually, I have some really good ideas on that. It isn't my intention to have law enforcement administer that program. That would be a very expensive and, in my opinion, a very inefficient way to do it.

We're looking at other measures so that we might very responsibly fulfill our responsibilities to those firearm owners who legally acquired these weapons that have now been made prohibited, but to do it in a cost-effective and efficient way to produce real public value—

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

I'm sorry, Minister. We know the other plans that you have already put out. You put out not one but two tenders, both of which have come back with zero bids to date. You want somebody else to design your confiscation program for you. It doesn't appear anybody wants to touch this particular billion-dollar boondoggle.

How much do you estimate it will cost of taxpayer dollars to now pay back the legal owners of firearms that you're going to confiscate?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Colleagues, I just want to point out that it works a lot better when we don't interrupt each other.

Minister Blair, would you respond to Mr. Motz's question?

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

I'm just looking for numbers, Chair.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, I think it is incumbent upon me to identify that almost everything Mr. Motz said was filled with many inaccuracies. I didn't want to interrupt him, because that would be rude, but I would not adopt any of the characterizations he presented.

However, I will advise him that with regard to the weapons that are now prohibited that were legally acquired by Canadians, I want to make sure those Canadians are treated fairly, so we are looking at bringing forward legislation and a budget to deal fairly with those Canadians. At the same time—

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, Minister. I appreciate those comments and I know legislation is coming forward. I've heard you. It's obvious that you don't know what the cost will be. You told Canadians that it's going to be $250 million when you first pushed this on the Canadian public, and now we know it'll probably be ten times more than that.

I'm also curious to know how much you estimate it'll cost to buy back the guns from criminals lined up to turn in their illegal firearms, but when I look, that must be the budget line I see with all the zeros on it, because we know that none of those criminals who are the real threat to public safety are going to be lining up to turn in any of their illegally obtained firearms. A gun ban, as you know, will not apply to criminals.

Minister, you maintained in a statement that the AR-15 is a firearm designed to kill as many people as possible in the shortest amount of time, that it is not a hunting or sporting rifle and that it has no place in society. If that's the case, can you explain why public servants and the Government of Yukon are buying this same firearm to manage human/wildlife conflict? To me, it sounds like a legitimate use of a firearm that has appropriate licensing, safety and storage requirements, contrary to the flawed rationale you guys use to justify your order in council. Do you have any thoughts on that?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have less than 30 seconds to answer Mr. Motz's question.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Hopefully it'll be uninterrupted.

Mr. Chair, we have prohibited weapons that have been used far too often in mass murders of innocent people and police officers. We believe there's absolutely no place for such firearms in civil society. However, I recall vividly that after three RCMP officers were murdered in Moncton by an individual using a firearm that we've now prohibited, the response of the government of the day was to buy similar firearms for the police so they would balance the firefight.

I believe, Mr. Chair, that we have taken action to remove those firearms from civil society. This will keep our communities and our police officers safer.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We're going to have leave it there.

Thank you, Minister. Thank you, Mr. Motz.

Madam Damoff, you have five minutes, please.

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

I thought it was me.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I just got a note saying that you and Pam had switched.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I think Gary switched with me and so, Kamal, go ahead.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have five minutes.

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister and all our witnesses, for being here.

Minister, last week Peel Regional Police joined forces with services across the greater Toronto area, successfully completing Project Siphon in a 14-month-long investigation resulting in numerous arrests and seizures of firearms, drugs and property. I believe over 1,800 charges were laid and 88 people arrested. I think many of the arrests were related to organized crime, firearms offences, shootings, and drug and human trafficking. I commend the Peel Regional Police for their outstanding work.

Minister, you know that in the greater Toronto area and in Brampton, unfortunately, we've heard and seen the tragic effects of gun violence too often. We know there is no simple solution. We need a comprehensive approach, including a combination of measures, such as investing in our youth and investing in our borders.

Through the main estimates and supplementaries, Minister, you're seeking an appropriation of $85 million. Do you have any update on programs to combat gun violence and smuggling in Canada, and how we're helping municipalities like Brampton dismantle street gangs and keep our communities safe?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you very much, Kamal. I think this is the question of our time with gun violence in Brampton and in the city of Toronto.

First I'll take the opportunity to remind the committee that this government actually provided $327 million over five years to the provinces and territories to fund municipal police services across Canada. We provided $65 million to the Province of Ontario to fund police services such as the Peel Regional Police service in its guns and gangs investigations. Those monies clearly are being well spent and well invested by the Peel Regional Police service, and I join you in commending them for their dedication and their hard work and the success of their investigation.

However, we also know that just investing in law enforcement isn't enough. We've worked with the police community, and we are strengthening gun control laws to create new offences and new penalties to eliminate the ways in which criminals get guns. Many of them are smuggled across the border; some are stolen and others are criminally diverted. We'll be bringing forward legislation that will strongly deter all of those activities.

Most important, and as you highlighted in the second part of your question, we have to make investments in kids and in communities to change the social conditions that give rise to so many of these crimes of violence and create a demand for guns. I think the police are doing some extraordinary work, as is CBSA, to reduce the supply of guns, and we're going to help them do even better.

We also know we have to reduce the demand for guns in those communities, and that's why we have promised that we'll be bringing forward, in the very near future, initiatives to provide additional funding directly to communities through the municipalities for community organizations that work with kids to get them involved in after-school programs and job training programs, changing the social conditions in our communities that give rise to that violence. We believe it's important to invest in policing but also to invest in community. I believe that in the long term, it's those investments in our kids and in our communities that will have the greatest impact on public safety. They are worthy investments and investments that we are prepared to make.

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you.

Minister, just briefly, because I may not have that much time, could you talk about the security infrastructure program? In the past, we've been told that the security infrastructure program had been oversubscribed. Can you please update us on what the government has done to improve this program and make it more accessible for communities like mine in Brampton to apply to?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Yes, ma'am. I think one of the most important programs and resources we make available to religious organizations and other community organizations is the funding to take steps to keep themselves more secure.

Our government has quadrupled the funding. We've increased the funding 400% over the past two years to support those organizations, but et me tell you, Kamal, it is still oversubscribed.

What we're also doing is broadening the flexibility for applying to that program and in how those resources are spent by community organizations that draw on this funding.

Through your advocacy and that of others, we will continue to work if more resources are needed. I think we get incredibly good value for those investments in supporting organizations to keep themselves safe. There are a number of ways in which we can do that, and we're making sure they have the flexibility to utilize those resources to the best effect. I think it's an extraordinarily important program. We have very substantially increased the funding, but I believe there's more that we can and must do.

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have a little less than 30 seconds.

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

I probably won't get an answer in that time. Maybe I'll use that in the next round.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You could also allocate it to somebody else.

Thank you.