Public Safety Committee on July 25th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Good morning, everyone. I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 31 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security. I am in Treaty 1 territory and also the homeland of the Métis people. Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Thursday, June 23, 2022, the committee is commencing its study of allegations of political interference in the 2020 Nova Scotia mass murder investigation.

With us today on the first panel is the Honourable Bill Blair, Minister of Emergency Preparedness, and Mr. Rob Stewart, deputy minister of the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness. Up to five minutes will be given for opening remarks, after which we will proceed with rounds of questions.

Welcome to all.

I now invite Minister Blair to make an opening statement of up to five minutes.

Minister, whenever you're ready, the floor is yours.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Minister of Emergency Preparedness]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Colleagues, thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today. I'd also like to acknowledge that I'm speaking to you today from the traditional territory of the Algonquin people.

On April 18 and 19 of 2020, an unthinkable tragedy unfolded in Nova Scotia. All Canadians were shaken by these horrific deaths and mourned alongside the affected communities. I would like to take this opportunity to reiterate my support for and condolences to the families of those who lost their lives in these violent attacks and our commitment to ensure that they get the answers they need.

We know that Canadians deserve a full accounting of what happened over those 13 hours on April 18 and 19 in 2020. That is why we established an independent inquiry, the Mass Casualty Commission, which is mandated to look into some of the most pressing questions that were raised into how this occurred and how future tragedies can be prevented. We are all looking forward to the inquiry's fact-based findings, which I understand are due to be released later this year.

As the commission conducts its work, I remain committed to the fundamental principle of operational independence for law enforcement in this country. I want to make it very clear: At no point did I direct the RCMP in any operational matter, including on public communications. I did not ask them to release any specific information, nor did I receive a promise for them to do so. As you will find in all of my public statements from that time, I confirmed that identifying the weapons used was a decision wholly within the purview of the RCMP.

What I would like to emphasize for you all today, however, is that during the years I've had the honour to serve as Minister of Border Security and Organized Crime Reduction and Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, one of my top priorities has been addressing gun violence in Canada. This was a key item in my mandate letter, which directed me to keep our communities safe by implementing new gun control measures, including a ban on assault-style firearms. Work on this issue had been under way for quite some time. We first made a commitment to get assault-style weapons off our streets in the very first Speech from the Throne in 2015. We repeated that commitment in both our platform and our throne speech in 2019. As part of that work, while I was Minister of Border Security and Organized Crime Reduction, I supported Minister Goodale in public consultations on reducing violent crime that involved both handguns and assault-style weapons.

Just within these few years, we have seen far too many examples of the kinds of harms these firearms can cause, such as at the shooting at the Quebec City mosque. Another gunman killed two police officers and two civilians in Fredericton. Within our neighbour to the south, the AR-15 alone has been used in mass shootings at the Pulse nightclub; in Sutherland Springs; at Stoneman Douglas High School; and, perhaps most tragically, at Sandy Hook Elementary School.

From the outset, we understood the importance of preventing assault-style firearms from getting into the hands of people who do Canadians harm. The tragedy that occurred in Nova Scotia only deepened our resolve to move forward with this critically important work. That is why on May 1, 2020, we announced an OIC prohibiting over 1,500 models of assault-style firearms and their variants. Firearms affected by this order in council cannot be legally used, sold or imported into Canada. We created a time-limited amnesty order to give law-abiding gun owners time to come into compliance.

The OIC on May 1 was the result of many years of hard work on the part of government, including public servants, and was developed based on public consultations that were open to all Canadians. Let me be very clear: These are weapons designed for the battlefield, intended to kill the maximum number of people in the least amount of time. They have no place in Canada.

The measure is, and continues to be, an incredibly important part of our overall approach to combatting gun violence, but it is not the only step we have taken. We have introduced expanded background checks and enhanced screening for those seeking a firearms licence, and we've made significant investments in helping provinces and territories tackle gang violence. Earlier this year, my colleague Minister Mendicino tabled further relevant legislation that I believe will be coming before this committee in short order. Combatting gun violence is a complex and continual process, an issue that requires a multi-faceted approach, and we will continue to keep Canadians safe by implementing stronger gun controls.

Mr. Chair, I would conclude, if I may, by reiterating that at no time have I ever interfered operationally or given operational direction to the RCMP in my role as the Minister of Public Safety.

I thank you all. I look forward to the questions that you may have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you, Minister. You won't have to wait long for those questions, because they're going to start right now.

Opening up this first round, I would now call on Ms. Dancho.

You have six minutes, Ms. Dancho. The floor is yours whenever you're ready to take it.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being with us today.

You or someone from your office was in daily contact with Commissioner Lucki in the immediate days following the Nova Scotia attacks on April 18 and 19. Correct?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I was not in contact with her on a daily basis, but frequently in the days afterward I was briefed by Commissioner Lucki.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

As well, your chief of staff and your deputy minister were in relatively daily contact with Commissioner Lucki in some capacity...?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Yes, I assume so.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Would you be comfortable tabling for the committee your calendar, your deputy minister's calendar and your chief of staff's calendar and phone logs that are relevant to your communication with Commissioner Lucki prior to our next committee meeting, specifically from the dates of April 18 to April 28 and including April 28? That would be for the reason of full transparency of your communications and your office's communications with her.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I actually have a timeline with me, and I'm quite comfortable sharing that and when I personally had conversations. There are a number of different things in that timeline—

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Minister, does that include the communication from your deputy minister and from your chief of staff with Commissioner Lucki as well?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Again, I'm more than happy to provide you with a timeline of all my communications on this matter, with Commissioner Lucki and with others.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Does that include the deputy minister's communications and the chief of staff Zita Astravas's communications?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I don't know if the deputy minister has that information available, so I don't want to make a commitment to it, but that's a question certainly you can pose to him.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Certainly there would be phone logs of all of the calls they made. Can you commit to tabling those with the committee before our next meeting: yours, the deputy minister's and the chief of staff Zita Astravas's?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Again, I don't have direct access to those logs, but if they exist, I think it's very important—

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

If they exist, do you commit to it?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

If I may, I think it's very important that this committee have all the information that it requires to make an accurate assessment of what transpired.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Great. Thank you very much.

Moving on, in a June 28, 2020, Globe and Mail article, you were quoted confirming that you spoke to the RCMP about the upcoming OIC ban.

When was Commissioner Lucki informed of the May 1 announcement date?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Commissioner Lucki had been working with us. Commissioner Lucki, as the commissioner of the RCMP, is responsible for the Canadian firearms program. The Canadian firearms program was integral in the work that we had—

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Mr. Blair, when was she informed of the May 1 date of that announcement?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

That's a question that would have to be posed to—

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

When was the May 1 date determined for that announcement? Was it before or after the Nova Scotia attacks?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

The date of release was determined after the Nova Scotia shooting.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you.

You're aware of the email sent by Commissioner Lucki on April 23, four days after the attacks, to your chief of staff Zita Astravas, containing information that your government had requested concerning weapons used in the attacks, correct?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Yes, I'm aware of it.