Public Safety Committee on July 25th, 2022

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Okay. That's an important clarification there.

I think that's probably the limit of my questions. Thank you for appearing before us, Commissioner.

I'll cede the rest of my time to you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Mr. Perkins.

Welcome to the committee, Mr. Perkins. You have five minutes in this slot. Take it away.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you. Maybe I can just follow up on that last question.

Commissioner, in your email of April 23 to the chief of staff, you said, “Here is the information about the firearms we know to date”. It doesn't say those were the ones found in the vehicle or not. It wasn't clear. That was at four o'clock. Then you included a list of the details.

Earlier we heard the minister testify that there was a cabinet meeting that day, or a briefing or cabinet meeting somehow with the Prime Minister that day. Between that meeting and this email, where did the request for this information specifically come from? Was it a call from the chief of staff after that cabinet meeting?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I was getting general requests from both the.... Normally when major events happen, I brief the deputy minister of public safety, the national security advisor to the Prime Minister and I often include the chief of staff, so the minister will be briefed up. Sometimes I directly brief the minister and others.

People in any of those groups were asking, so I went back to the Nova Scotia people and asked if there was anything we could give about the guns. I was actually told that we couldn't talk about the guns used. We could talk about the guns seized. That's where that information came from.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you.

In your call or whatever remote system you were using on April 28—a conference call facility of some sort—who from RCMP headquarters was also on that call?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

It was Deputy Commissioner Brian Brennan; our director of communications, Sharon Tessier; and another person from communications, Dan Brien.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

He's the media relations head.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Yes.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

In that call that was referenced earlier, you said that the team in Nova Scotia didn't understand that this was tied to pending gun control legislation. Did you say that in that meeting?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

What I recall is that.... Somebody might have mentioned why the weapons were important, and I said that it's not a surprise because part of the minister's mandate letter is, in fact, gun legislation.

That's how I was tying it in. That's why I inferred the question was being asked about whether those weapons are going to be included, along with numerous other times I was asked when information was going to be released.

Often in a press conference, the Prime Minister was asked something and he didn't have the information. They would come back and say, “Do we have that information?” We were not ready to release that yet. They'd ask, “Do you have this...?”

Because they were asked these questions, we were just trying to get them the information that they could release.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

It was part of an active police investigation and at the time, I believe, the team was trying to figure out the actual origin of the firearms and were dealing with the United States agencies.

Was there any reason that anyone outside that police investigation actually required the details of those firearms for any reason whatsoever in an active police investigation?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

No.

It's funny because when I think of all of this investigation, I honestly was thinking about the connection of the guns used and tying them to the forensics. When I asked if any of the information on the guns could.... I had no idea what was going on with the investigation, so I asked the question of whether any of the information on the guns could be released. I got an email that you saw on the 23rd with the caveat. I said, “Okay. Great.”

I literally forwarded the email—or cut and pasted—and put it towards the people who were asking.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

In that email you said to please not give it beyond the Prime Minister and the minister, but—

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

That was the instruction I was given.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

At 10 at night, six hours later, in that email chain you actually copied five other government officials and an RCMP person. You actually started to disseminate it beyond the two you had said.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I'd have to see that.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

It's in the email that was provided to the Mass Casualty Commission. Mr. O'Reilly, Mr. Moreau, Mr. Barrick Stewart and Vincent Rigby were all copied on that same chain. In essence you had released the information about the firearms to a large number of people beyond the Prime Minister.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

My chief of staff has all the information that I had. The three primary people and their chiefs of staff usually are included. They are the national security adviser to the Prime Minister, the deputy minister of public safety, and the minister via the chief of staff.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Superintendent—

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you. We're out of time in that round of questioning.

I now move to Mr. Hardie, who will have the last slot in this round.

You have five minutes, sir, whenever you're ready.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Commissioner and Deputy Commissioner, thank you for being here.

From the letter to you from Lia Scanlan, I wanted to read one section here.

It says, “It stood out to me that once you were informed there was a miscommunication, and Sharon advised that she briefed incorrectly...”.

Who is Sharon?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Sharon is the director of communications at national headquarters.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Was it Sharon who told you that the information on the firearms would be disclosed?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Yes.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I see.

Who did Sharon ask about that? Do you know?