Public Safety Committee on Oct. 4th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Van Popta.

Does the witness wish to respond to that last comment??

[D/Commr Bryan Larkin]

The point is well taken, and I can assure you that we're working very closely with the FATE program in the Province of Ontario, clearly one of the provinces that have seen a significant increase in gun violence. We're looking at mechanisms as to how we can share data to provide that national support. We have seen movement on that. We recognize it's an issue, and it's a good point for us to bring back and work on. We would be pleased, once again, to provide a written response as to progress in that area.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Deputy Commissioner.

We go now to Ms. Damoff. You have six minutes, please.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you very much.

My first question is for the RCMP. We've had some conversations around “red flag”. The minister answered some questions.

I recall that when we studied Bill C-71, the Conservative Party opposed lifetime background checks. At the time, they were not supportive of any kind of a reporting system for mental health issues, yet we know that 75% or 80%, I think it is, of people who die by firearms are dying by suicide. Also, we know that women in particular are at risk when there's a firearm in the home. There's data that strongly supports the risk to women when there's a firearm in the home.

One of the things we did in Bill C-71 was that we extended to lifetime background checks. We listened to witnesses like Dr. Alan Drummond and Alison Irons, who talked about the need to strengthen red flags. We do have something in the bill that is better than what was in the previous version of Bill C-21, because people can remain anonymous.

That said, we also know that it's up to a judge to issue a prohibition order, and we don't control how a judge decides in a case. If a woman does go to court for that red flag, she can do it anonymously or through a women's shelter and she can appeal to the court, but we're relying on a judge to issue a prohibition order.

I was really heartened when I saw the mandate letter that was given to the RCMP that was also going to resource the chief firearms officer to ensure that calls are responded to promptly, and also, in working with local police services—in my area, it would be the Halton police service—ensure that if someone is reporting an issue with someone who has a firearm, whether that's for mental health or for gender-based violence, it's responded to in a timely manner.

Could you update us on how important that work by the chief firearms officer is and how we are progressing on that?

[Kellie Paquette, Director General, Canadian Firearms Program, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Thank you for that question.

We're actually progressing quite well. It's an end-to-end process, and I have to stress that point, because it's not only the training but the process of how they deal with these files.

Right now we're reviewing the training to ensure that it has the correct information in there from a police perspective—that's the UCR coding—so that they understand that timeliness is very important, and then that would go directly to a CFO as well, so that when it's identified to them, they know that they can action as quickly as possible.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

When you're talking about training, was that with the RCMP or was that with local police services?

[Kellie Paquette]

It's actually the RCMP online system, but we're also going to use that tool to educate as well.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Okay.

The other thing that was in the mandate letter was about this “uniform crime reporting scoring”, which sounds like a very complicated term. I actually didn't know exactly what it was until I spoke to Alison Irons, whose daughter, as many will know from when Alison testified, was stalked and killed by a law-abiding gun owner.

One of the concerns that Alison expressed was on this uniform crime reporting, so that if there is an incident with someone who has a firearm, it is reported by local police services. That was also included in the commissioner's mandate letter. I'm just wondering how you're doing on educating police services across the country on utilizing that tool.

[Kellie Paquette]

This is actually part of that process.

When the police of jurisdiction open a file, the file has to be scored. That scoring will automatically send a flag to a chief firearms officer if a firearm is involved or if it's a file that we want to be aware of. The timeliness of that scoring is very important. We are making some headway on that as well. Again, it's part of that training and education piece.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

I'm going to shift gears now to airsoft.

Last night I read a CBC article in which the Regina police chief, Evan Bray, said that replica weapons pose a problem because they're difficult to discern from real weapons. He specifically referenced a frightening school lockdown that took place in Regina that resulted in a weapons charge being laid against a 13-year-old girl. In my community recently, there was a lockdown of White Oaks Secondary School. A constituent sent me a video that one of the students took of the police coming into the portable. It was, again, one of these airsoft rifles.

If you have the data, can you talk about how often incidents like this happen, where a replica or an airsoft gun is used by someone and is mistaken by police as a real gun?

Do you understand what I'm saying? I didn't say it very well.

[D/Commr Bryan Larkin]

Thank you.

Through you, Mr. Chair, it's a very difficult piece of data to capture. From a policing perspective, there's a delicate balance for recreational use in entertainment, for which law-abiding citizens use them.

One concern from a policing perspective is putting frontline police officers in a very difficult situation when they are responding to complaints. When they are responding to crimes of commission or different types of events where an airsoft or a replica is present, it's very difficult to actually recognize the difference or recognize that it may not be a real firearm, handgun or a long gun, so what we see is a series of interactions around use of force, which does create challenges for policing. Hence, we're trying to balance and mitigate that. The Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, and in particular Chief Evan Bray from Regina, are currently co-leading a Canadian chiefs working group on firearms. It's a working group on to how we modernize and progress on firearms within our society.

You will see fatal interactions across the country involving replica and/or airsoft guns involving police intervention. Of course, we're currently working on a national revamp or new approach to intervention around policing, because it does pose a real-life problem and we're seeing it escalate, but it's very difficult.

One recommendation and a gap that's recognized is about uniform crime reporting so that we actually have the data as a profession.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Deputy Commissioner.

Ms. Michaud, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll continue on the same topic.

Mr. Larkin, you said it was quite hard to gather data on airsoft guns and to determine how they might present a threat.

My questions will be for the representatives of the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness.

Have you provided the government with data or statistics indicating that replica guns have been used to commit violent crimes so the government can decide whether to prohibit them? What's the justification for prohibiting them?

[Talal Dakalbab, Assistant Deputy Minister, Crime Prevention Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

Thank you for that question.

I'd like to clarify something here. Bill C‑21 proposes a standard for airsofts that can fire a projectile at an initial velocity of 366 to 500 feet per second and that are replicas. The act already provides that it's prohibited to use other airsoft models that are replica guns. The intent behind the bill is thus to fill the current legal void for this specific firearm class.

The Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, of which Mr. Larkin was the president at the time, made a request to the minister that this legal void be filled.

So this measure is in response to requests that were made because it was feared that police wouldn't always be able to determine the type of weapon used by individuals. We were also informed that police officers in some cases may believe an individual is using an airsoft gun when it's actually a firearm, which puts their lives in danger.

As my colleague explained, the data are hard to find. However, as mentioned a little earlier, there have been accidents in which people were murdered or injured by bullets because they were using airsofts when police officers thought they were firearms.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I ask the question because, as elected representatives, we get comments and expressions of fear from people who are in favour of firearms and others who support increased gun control. It isn't easy to read legislation. It may contain parts that are unclear or hard to understand.

The document your department has given us states that manufacturers and retailers may continue selling airsoft guns but that they'll have to alter their appearance so they don't look like modern firearms. That reminds me of the measure introduced in the United States requiring orange tips to be added to replicas to distinguish them from actual firearms.

Is that the kind of measure we're indirectly proposing? If manufacturers decide to produce guns that don't look exactly like firearms, they won't be classified as prohibited firearms under the bill. Is that what we're to understand?

[Talal Dakalbab]

Thank you for your question.

I have to admit that, like the minister, I also get a lot of letters and requests for meetings. However, we've started the consultations. We're basing our analysis on international examples. England, in particular, has a good system that seems to work. I can't tell you right now what the final result will be, but I can confirm that we're talking to the associations. We're also trying to speak with our colleagues at the Canada Border Services Agency and the RCMP since sometimes there are operational enforcement issues.

We also want to ensure that our recommendation to the minister is well balanced and takes into account all factors, particularly with regard to the industry. There are all these examples, in the United States and England, where there have to be two distinct colours. For example, it may be decided that a particular type of gun must have a pink tip. In many cases, however, the industry may also start producing real firearms that look like those that are subject to the proposed changes, which we feel is another challenge.

These are aspects that we're analyzing. I can't give you a firm answer because we're still at the information gathering stage. However, we're constantly talking to industry people and colleagues who will be responsible for enforcing the act.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I'm glad to know that studies are being conducted on this. Do you think they'll be ready and that we'll be able to use that data in our clause-by-clause consideration of the bill?

[Talal Dakalbab]

If I'm not mistaken, the provision in question will come into force once the bill receives royal assent. So we won't have a choice. It will have to be ready.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

That's good.

We increasingly hear that weapons are being manufactured using 3D printers. Increasing numbers of people also order parts over the Internet to manufacture their weapons once they receive them at home.

Are you starting to consider that phenomenon? Do you think Bill C‑21 could be amended to address that specific problem?

[Talal Dakalbab]

Thank you for your question.

As an official, I can't tell you what the government will decide to do. However, that question was addressed in your committee's report. We've read it and are studying it very closely. My team, my colleagues and I look at every firearm that presents a public safety risk. These are situations that we constantly analyze. I can't tell you what amendments will be introduced, of course; that's not my role.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Yes, it's always a bit delicate to put that kind of question to officials. You aren't the ones who make the final decision.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Ms. Michaud.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

We'll go now to Mr. MacGregor for six minutes, please.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

One of the questions I have centres on the handgun freeze. Currently, I could go and visit my local gun range. I don't have an RPAL, but if I'm under the supervision of someone who does hold an RPAL and I'm at the range, I can legally use the handgun under their direct supervision.

If Bill C-21 were to pass as is, there would be nothing stopping the range from being a business owning a number of handguns, and people could still come to the range and legally use them under the supervision of a range master. Is that correct? Is that a correct interpretation of Bill C-21?