Public Safety Committee on Oct. 4th, 2022

[Talal Dakalbab]

The proposal is that businesses will continue to have the authority to own the handguns, and it is one of the things that we are discussing right now to see how this could.... There are comments we're hearing about elite sport shooters, and I earlier heard a question about that as well.

This is one of the ways that we're looking at it, but this will be defined later in regulations. I'm just explaining the consultations that are taking place right now to see if these kinds of options are available for people and if they have interest, talent or whatever.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

An individual may not be allowed to go and purchase one, but they could still go and use one in a controlled environment.

[Talal Dakalbab]

In a business, yes.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you for clarifying that.

I also want to go back to airsoft. I know this is a recurring theme, but it shows that we, as members of Parliament, are getting a lot of correspondence on this issue as well.

I did ask the minister a fairly technical question, and I think he indicated his willingness to have some consultations about how we work through this, but I have to go back to the discrepancy that I believe exists between the Public Safety Canada handout, which I have before me, and how Bill C-21 is written.

If I look at the wording in Bill C-21, if it were to pass as currently written, airsoft, which looks like the real thing, is going to be deemed a prohibited device, but in your handout, you say that current owners would be allowed to keep and use those that they already own. How could a current owner use a prohibited device? I'm wondering how you square that circle.

[Talal Dakalbab]

I heard your question earlier. It is the intent of the legislation to allow the current owner to keep their airsoft guns.

I'm going to turn it over to Kellie, who is responsible for the CFO part.

[Kellie Paquette]

I would add that they can retain what they have, but going forward, the manufacturers would no longer be able to manufacture those airsoft guns that resemble real firearms. They would have to be modified in some way going forward, either in colour.... This is the consultation that is happening right now with industry.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

If I were the current owner of one and I got grandfathered by Bill C-21, now I'm suddenly in possession of a prohibited device, because you have changed the definition, and there are some pretty serious consequences for owning a prohibited device. Would I feel at ease going out and using it, even though it's now deemed a prohibited device? This is the concern many in the community are having.

[Talal Dakalbab]

As I mentioned earlier, there were consultations with the Library of Parliament. I would have to get back to you to confirm.

I can confirm that the intent of the legislation, as mentioned in the document provided at the tech briefing, is to allow them, but I will have to discuss it with some colleagues and get back to the committee with a clear answer.

That's the document that we provided, and this is the intent of the legislation.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

From my communications with the airsoft community, I know they have been trying to find some solutions, such as requiring a minimum age for purchase, some kind of a licence to purchase, the requirement of an opaque bag to transport it from the place of residence to the airsoft range and the requirement of an orange tip.

What's the department's position on some of these proposals? I'm sure you're getting the same correspondence I am.

[Talal Dakalbab]

As I mentioned earlier, we are getting a lot of correspondence, and we're looking at international best practices and seeking advice from everybody to formulate options for the minister. I can't say to the committee what the final decision will be, but I can reassure you that we are doing this work right now.

Again, adding a colour or two is done in some other jurisdictions. These are all considerations that the department is looking into.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you.

Very quickly, Bill C-21 makes specific reference to the Olympics and Special Olympics, which have a very elite level of shooting. Do you have a sense of how many people in Canada currently qualify at that level?

[Talal Dakalbab]

Because this will be part of the regulations, we're working right now with Sport Canada to clarify exactly who will be allowed and to describe it in the regulation.

What we're doing right now is gathering the numbers of who they are and at what level. We're working out what implications provinces and territories will have with letters of recommendation or how the process will unfold for our colleagues in the RCMP to allow these people to be owners of handguns. All of these are exactly the kinds of things we're working on right now.

I want to remind members—because I heard multiple questions earlier about the regulations and about the large-capacity magazines—that all of these issues will be worked out through regulations.

As the committee is fully aware, the Firearms Act is very specific about the requirements in the regulations for firearms, and there is this exceptional measure of the 30 sitting days or referral to committee in both houses. I want to emphasize that it's important to know that whatever's coming into force through regulations—hopefully, not in two years—will be subject to in-depth consultations, not only with the committee and both Houses, but also with Canadians and industry, whether it's for large-capacity magazines or what kinds of exemptions should be included or not.

Whatever recommendations move forward will be available for at least 30 sitting days, and all this information will be gathered and considered before moving forward with registration or going further—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, sir. I'm going to have to cut you off there.

[Talal Dakalbab]

I'm sorry about that. I wanted to clarify the regulations.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

No worries.

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

We'll go to Mr. Lloyd for five minutes.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question will be to you, Mr. Dakalbab, as well as to Deputy Commissioner Larkin and Ms. Paquette.

I think you'll agree with the principle that correlation does not equal causation. That's why I was so astonished by what the minister said in his testimony, when he said that the increase in legal registered firearm owners is causing an increase in gun violence in Canada.

Do you, Mr. Dakalbab, have any analysis or evidence to support that claim?

[Talal Dakalbab]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm not here to defend or not defend what the minister is saying—

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

But do you have that evidence?

[Talal Dakalbab]

What we have as information is the increased number, in the last 10 years, of owners in Canada with handguns—I believe it's up over 50%, Kellie, if I'm not wrong—and the increased number of stolen handguns. This raised our attention. I don't have the number in front of me, but what I could tell you is that the data that we have available shows this increase.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Then it's not a direct connection. It's not that because there are more legal firearms owners, there is therefore more gun violence.

[Talal Dakalbab]

I can't tell you if it's a direct connection or not.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

There's no evidence from Public Safety Canada.

Thank you.

[Talal Dakalbab]

Well, there is—

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Deputy Commissioner Larkin, do you have any evidence to support that claim?

[D/Commr Bryan Larkin]

Again, we're focused on initiatives that will support public safety. Again, we don't have the correlation; we don't have that data. We work within the legislative framework that is provided to us, but, again, our approach—