Public Safety Committee on Oct. 4th, 2022

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you. I just wanted to know if you have the data.

Ms. Paquette, do you have that data?

[Kellie Paquette]

No, I don't have that data.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Okay, so I guess the minister was speculating there.

My second question is for Mr. Dakalbab.

When we're embarking on a massive, possibly multi-billion-dollar plan to buy back firearms and also to initiate a handgun freeze, I think Canadians would want to know that the department has done a study that the outcomes will lead to enhanced public safety. Does the department have such a study or analysis that indicates that these programs will increase public safety?

[Talal Dakalbab]

I just want to clarify, for the handgun part, that it's not only about gangs. That's obviously an important part, but there's the whole domestic violence part, and there is all the suicide, as well, by handguns. We do have data about how committing or attempting to commit suicide with a gun significantly increases deaths.

I just want to say that the way the department looks at it is really a holistic assessment, and we look at the impacts for public safety throughout.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Does your evidence show that this handgun freeze and the gun buyback will lead to enhanced public safety, or is that just something that you're speculating will happen if this is implemented?

[Talal Dakalbab]

To be fair, I'm here to talk about Bill C-21, so I'm personally not in a position to talk about the buyback, but—

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Or the handgun freeze, as I said.

[Talal Dakalbab]

As mentioned earlier, all guns are subject to risk—

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

So there's some risk.

[Talal Dakalbab]

I can't tell you exactly what the impact will be on specific—

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

If you do have any studies, I would appreciate it if you could submit those to the committee, maybe at a later date. I'd really appreciate looking over those studies.

My next question is for Ms. Paquette.

Something that really concerns me—and maybe you can provide some more insight—is that Bill C-21 includes a provision that says it will automatically revoke a registration certificate for a firearm after a reclassification has occurred. Won't this turn people who have legally owned registered firearms into automatic criminals? Why was this included in Bill C-21, and will there be a grace period as we've seen in the past?

[Talal Dakalbab]

I think Madame Paquette is asking me to answer that question, because this is more of a policy question than an operational one.

It's no different right now from what it will be when there's a revocation of a firearm, and I think Madame Paquette could speak to the process itself with regard to how we're going to proceed with that. If there's a revocation following a complaint, a mishandling, a crime or an order from the court, it will be exactly the same process, and the people will have to abide by the rules in the same way they do right now, which I think Madame Paquette can—

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

I'm not talking about people who have been accused of anything. It just seems that part of the policy is that the government can change the classification of a firearm from restricted to prohibited or from non-restricted to restricted, and this legislation is saying that their registration will automatically cease once that happens, so, on paper, they will be in possession of an illegal firearm, and that's criminal. How can we avoid turning innocent people into paper criminals overnight?

[Talal Dakalbab]

The government has options, and I think it was done in the OIC of May 2020, in which an amnesty order was provided as well. I'm not in a position to tell you what the government will do, but what I'm saying is that what we saw in the past is what happened to avoid a situation of people becoming, from one day to the next, criminals for owning a handgun that they owned legally before.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Lloyd.

We go now to Mr. Chiang for five minutes.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for coming here today.

Assistant Deputy Minister Dakalbab, Mr. Lloyd asked for data with regard to this. Could you please include data on the connection between gun ownership and suicide and domestic violence?

[Talal Dakalbab]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the question.

That's exactly what I was mentioning. The data we have is holistic data on all gun usage. We will be happy to provide whatever we have on mental health, domestic violence and gender-based violence.

I think it was mentioned earlier that in a violent environment, there is a much higher risk that if there's a gun, the gun will be used. There is a higher risk for the lives of women especially, to be honest, according to the data we have.

I'd be happy to provide this data and the numbers that we collect globally for all the questions from the committee members.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you for your answer.

I understand that firearm owners involved in acts of domestic violence or stalking will have their firearm licences automatically revoked under Bill C-21.

Could you explain the impact your department believes this will have on victims and survivors of domestic violence?

[Talal Dakalbab]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We follow your work here very closely, and clearly the committee heard from a lot of groups about the importance of removing guns in a situation of domestic violence and the huge impact that will have on the safety of anybody who's living in a domestic violence situation.

I can tell you that the department also meets with stakeholders who would like to meet with us and we collect this information. We are told that there's a significant impact in a domestic violence situation when they know that the guns have been removed automatically following a complaint, rather than having a complaint and being back in an environment where there's a high risk of guns being used.

I can confirm that we are very aware of the positive impact that this will have on the well-being and mental health of not only women, but also.... We heard from doctors, and I think the committee heard from doctors in the past, about on mental health cases in which they were struggling to remove the guns and ensure the safety of these individuals.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you so much, Mr. Dakalbab.

In regard to regulations for guns, can you explain to this committee how this legislation will ensure that sport shooters are protected and will able to continue competing in their sports? I have a lot of sport shooters and clubs in my riding that are concerned about this new Bill C-21.

[Talal Dakalbab]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I think I mentioned earlier that we are working with Sport Canada and with the provinces and territories to ensure that we have clarity through the regulations on exactly what is required from these professional sport shooters.

The threshold is high in the legislation. As you know, Olympic and Paralympic disciplines will be included, but the details of how we are going to apply this policy will be coming through regulations. We are going to consult as required for any regulations to clearly identify this and make sure it is well understood by everybody in these disciplines.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you so much.

I'll turn my attention to Deputy Commissioner Larkin.

I understand that Bill C-21 will make it an offence to alter a cartridge or magazine to exceed its lawful capacity and will allow for wiretaps for this new offence. What impact do you think these measures will have on law enforcement agencies that are focused on reducing firearm violence?

[D/Commr Bryan Larkin]

Thank you.

Through you, Mr. Chair, a resolution was recommended by the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police through our working group. Our organization, the RCMP, is supportive of that, as we look particularly at curbing gun violence and the alteration of magazines where we see that type of violence, particularly in our urban areas.

The potential outcome is unknown. Obviously, we're hoping that it will allow our investigations opportunities for large-scale, multi-faceted joint force investigations where we're doing other types of covert operations that will actually curb the alteration of magazines and/or seize more. This would hopefully have an outcome around public safety and the use of such.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Deputy Commissioner.

Thank you, Mr. Chiang.

Ms. Michaud, you have the floor once again. You have two and a half minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As my colleagues have done before me, I'd like to direct questions to the departmental people concerning the criteria used to define an elite sport shooter. Thank you in advance for your answer.

You said you're still consulting. The present bill isn't clear on whether you have to be an elite athlete or an active member of a shooting club to be able to acquire a handgun, for example. I know that's not your area, and I thank you for clarifying matters earlier regarding the regulations and orders that will come into force a little later.

I think it's unfortunate that the government has been saying since 2019 that it's going to do more on gun control but that consultations are still incomplete as we're examining Bill C‑21 in 2022. That's more a comment than a question. I know that's not your fault, but I had to mention it. We have to make decisions in our legislative role, but we don't yet have all the tools we need to do so. It's somewhat disappointing.

Regarding the measures in addition to Bill C‑21, you mentioned future regulations on large-capacity magazines and the possibility of requiring that long guns contain only five rounds. This bill would allow a maximum of 10 rounds for handguns and 5 for certain firearms such as semi-automatic centre-fire rifles.

When we did our guns and gangs study, witnesses told us it might be very easy to require manufacturers to make magazines containing no more than five rounds.

Are you studying that too? Is that also an additional measure that will come later because you don't have enough data to include it in the bill? What studies or consultations are you conducting on that?