Public Safety Committee on Oct. 18th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

That's great. Thanks, all of you.

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

We'll start our second round now with Mr. Shipley for five minutes, please.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I'd like to start with Mr. Winkel.

Thank you, Mr. Winkel, my good neighbour just up Highway 11 there. I'm from Barrie—Springwater—Oro—Medonte. I'm sure you're well aware of where that is. Welcome here today.

I have just a couple of quick questions, Mr. Winkel, because we're under a tight timeline, and I'd like to get through a few here. Specifically, what amendments or changes would you like to see in regard to Bill C-21?

[Wesley Allan Winkel]

I'd like to see first and foremost that when it comes to the magazine restriction, we implement the words at minimum of “detachable and centerfire” when it comes to magazine capacity restrictions. That way, it will not limit the number of firearms affected.

I would like to see that we continue to allow all licensed and vetted individuals to purchase handguns.

We would like to see the committee work with the air gun industry to ensure there are options for air guns that do not provide a high risk to law enforcement to be sold and properly identified.

Also, we're looking for competition exemptions, similar to the Olympic exemptions, for all international competitor shooters and target shooters in all the different sports.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you for that. If you think of anything else, you can please put that in writing to us.

I'd like to switch quickly—because I am going to be short on time—to my friends at Airsoft.

I recently received an email. I'm not going to mention the gentleman's name. He's from Barrie. It's a little lengthy, but I'm going to read a couple of paragraphs from it and ask for your input as to whether this is normally what's going on in it , because I don't play airsoft. Some family members have in the past, but I don't know a lot about it.

I'm going to paraphrase here by starting with this from my resident: “It is truly a team sport that brings together players from all different walks of life, and provides a community that accepts all sorts of people gathering around a common passion. I also believe that it has a part to play in getting the youth away from screens and video games, and puts them out into an afternoon of play, requiring some physical effort as well as critical decision making. Airsoft has helped my life personally in so many ways including sobriety. There is so much positivity surrounding the sport! I play competitively with a very active team every week but I also play on another team called AAA “Airsoft Addicts Anonymous”. We meet up usually once a month or more and it keeps growing and growing. Airsoft is for everyone, and has zero downsides. It should have no place in this bill.

“It will break my heart if Bill C-21 is passed, and these opportunities are taken away from the current and future generations of players, having their favourite sport outlawed for reasons we do not find legitimate, nor convincing.”

The letter is a lot longer, but I'll leave it at that.

Perhaps you could comment on that and tell me a little bit about the type of people who are playing this sport across Canada.

[Brian A. McIlmoyle]

Thank you for the opportunity to answer that question.

I've been involved in the community since 2005. I've seen people...mostly young men, because the demographic does slide to young men participating in airsoft, although that's broadening now. The appeal is broadening. I've seen young men change before my eyes over a period of a couple of years, from basement dwellers who don't see the light of day to young men who are empowered and who become leaders and mentors in their own right.

This is what keeps me involved in it. I'm way older than most people who are involved in airsoft, but this is what keeps me involved in this community: the transformation that happens with young men and women who get involved in it. It's inspiring to see.

There are few opportunities for young people to learn leadership skills, and this is one of the environments where it does happen. They learn confidence and learn how to interact with other people in a collaborative and co-operative way. All of these skills are learned and developed on the airsoft field. The transformation of young people into becoming adults, becoming entrepreneurs, starting businesses and getting jobs to pay for their hobby really is something to see.

The impact is very large, and that letter is a very good example of the kinds of things we hear every day.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, I'm very low on time. How much time do I have?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

You have 22 seconds.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Very quickly, then—and this is probably not going to get much of an answer—a constituent of mine owns a paintball and airsoft pro shop in Barrie. He says that Bill C-21 in its current form will result in a loss of 60% to 70% of his revenue and force the closure of his business that he has spent 20 years building. Are you hearing that?

[Brian A. McIlmoyle]

Yes. I'll pass that over to Mr. Wan. He's a business owner himself.

[Ziming Wan]

I've been working in the airsoft industry for about a decade now, and about 50% of retail sales are from the airsoft devices themselves. I believe the statistic we gathered was that over 90% of airsoft businesses expect to close immediately if Bill C-21 is passed in its current state.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Shipley. We're going to go to Ms. Damoff for five minutes. We're going to have to terminate this round after Mr. MacGregor so we can have time to get the next panel in.

Go ahead, Ms. Damoff, for five minutes, please.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to all of our witnesses for being here.

Dr. Ahmed, I think I heard you say you have to leave at 5:25, so I'm going to start with you.

I want to thank you, first of all, for your advocacy. I know you've come under extensive attack, you and the other doctors, from the Canadian gun lobby. It's been horrific what you've experienced because you've advocated public health measures. I know doctors looked at the burden of injury from car accidents and advocated seat belts, looked at smoking and advocated smoking laws, and the burden of injury from firearms is quite high. You mentioned suicide. We know that in terms of gender-based violence, women who live in a home with a firearm are more likely to be coercively controlled.

I had an extensive conversation with Dr. Alan Drummond about the red flag laws, and I know you mentioned that you're supportive of what is in the bill. One of the issues that Dr. Drummond explained to me is that the red flag falls under numerous jurisdictions, including provincial, and also your physicians and surgeons society. If there's an obvious, immediate danger, the physician is able to call the police or hold somebody in the hospital, but if there's a suspicion that there could be a danger either to themselves or others, there's no mandatory reporting, and that actually does not fall within the federal legislative framework. Is that correct?

[Dr. Najma Ahmed]

Yes. As you correctly point out, it is complicated, because firearm legislation is a federal jurisdiction but physician regulation and the health care system are provincial matters. You are correct, and I'll hand it over to Dr. Maggi, who can explain the responsibility of physicians related to people who are an immediate risk to themselves under the Mental Health Act.

As it currently stands, there's no way for a physician, if they are concerned about the safety of a woman in a domestic situation or they're concerned that a person might kill themselves with a firearm, to have the firearm removed.

There are many other situations in which we have the mandated responsibility to report. For example, if tonight I see someone in the trauma bay who was injured while they were driving their vehicle drunk, I have a duty to report in a mandatory fashion. Similarly, if we are concerned about a child being abused in their home, we have a mandatory obligation to report it, but there are gaps, as you are outlining.

I'm going to hand it over to Dr. Maggi, who may have further comments in this area.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Dr. Ahmed, I'm going to cut you off because I only have two minutes left. I think there's an opportunity for the federal government to take some leadership on this and work with the provinces and the licensing bodies.

To our friends at airsoft, this recommendation, as you know, has come from the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police. The government didn't just come up with it on its own. In June of 2021, I met with the Airsoft Businesses Association and I did pass on their comments, similar to yours, to the previous minister. You have been meeting with the current minister's staff to discuss these types of things, correct?

[Brian A. McIlmoyle]

There has been the opening of meetings. It's in the preliminary stages at this point. We're hoping to develop far more connections and more meetings, so—

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Would you be open to safe storage regulations?

[Brian A. McIlmoyle]

Safety in storage and transportation is something that we absolutely are interested in, and our community is not against it.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

We had the opportunity to chat. You mentioned a U.K. model that is used that you're going to provide us in a written brief. Could you very quickly describe that?

[Brian A. McIlmoyle]

Yes. The U.K. model brings into place a requirement to be a member of an insured association before you can purchase an airsoft gun.

There's a two-tier system in there in which the lower tier of airsoft items is coloured or partially transparent, and these are widely available. Then the higher tier—

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I'm sorry; I'm going to have to cut you off because I have a really quick question for Mr. Winkel.

What—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Ms. Damoff, I'm sorry. Your time is way past.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

It's not. It's five minutes right now.

Okay, that's fine, but I had a little bit of time left, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Okay. Be quick, and let's have a quick answer if we could.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

What role do you think gun shops can play, Mr. Winkel, in assuring effective and safe buyback of firearms?

[Wesley Allan Winkel]

I think that gun shops have a natural objection to the buyback program as a whole, because of a large amount of uninterest in the program from the legal firearms community.

We've seen that provinces such as Alberta, Saskatchewan, Yukon and now New Brunswick have agreed to opt out of all the buyback initiatives, and therefore at this time I think most of the gun shops would look to be opting out of a buyback situation.