Public Safety Committee on Oct. 27th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome, everyone, to meeting number 42 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security. We will start by acknowledging that we are meeting on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin people.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Thursday, June 23, 2022, the committee is resuming consideration of Bill C-21, an act to amend certain acts and to make certain consequential amendments (firearms).

Today we have two panels of witnesses. For the first hour, we have witnesses by video conference.

We will first welcome Pierre Brochet, president of the Association des directeurs de police du Québec.

We will also hear from Evan Bray, co‑chair of the special purpose committee on firearms of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police.

Lastly, we will hear Brian Sauvé, president of the National Police Federation.

We will give each group up to five minutes for opening remarks, after which we will proceed with rounds of questions.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I raise a point of order, Mr. Chair.

Before proceeding with the witnesses' presentations, can you confirm that the sound checks have been done for all witnesses? I see that today's witnesses are appearing by videoconference, and I want to make sure that the interpreters have confirmed that the sound is adequate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Absolutely, and thank you for that. That's a very good point.

The clerk has assured me that the sound checks have been done and everyone has proper equipment.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

We will begin with Mr. Brochet of the Association des directeurs de police du Québec.

You have five minutes.

[Pierre Brochet, President, Association des directeurs de police du Québec]

Good morning, everyone.

I would like to thank the committee for inviting the Association des directeurs de police du Québec to take part in this discussion.

The Association des directeurs de police du Québec groups together 34 police services working in Quebec. They include the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the Service de police de la Ville de Montréal and the Sûreté du Québec, as well as all of the other municipal police services.

Before discussing Bill C‑21, I would like to say that Quebec's police chiefs are extremely aware of the fact that gun violence claims victims and affects their friends and family.

We are in favour of strengthening gun control. I think that it is the right message to send Canadians. As a society, Canada sends a strong message concerning our desire to reduce the number of firearms in circulation. In particular, we wish to reduce domestic violence and mass shootings.

We are also in favour of the buyback of assault weapons, an important measure that will certainly have a positive impact. Obviously, we need to put the logistics in place and coordinate efforts with the various provincial governments. This strategy will be costly, so the federal and provincial governments need to discuss the issue thoroughly.

We are also in favour of the handgun freeze. This is an important step forward. This being said, like you, we are aware that we will have to wait a few generations before we see any real change, because the people who currently own handguns will be able to keep them. However, we think that this is a step in the right direction.

I am sure that everyone has heard about the urban violence in the Montreal area, in particular in Montreal and Laval. To reduce urban violence, we need to continue our efforts to address arms trafficking and border controls. In Quebec, most firearms seized from criminals are smuggled in from the United States.

We would also like to request that the law be modernized to include ghost guns. As you may know, ghost guns are becoming increasingly popular. People order firearm components and assemble them to produce what we call ghost guns. We need to think about the possibility of making certain firearm components illegal.

We are also in favour of a red flag law when there is a restraining order in place. This would allow law enforcement to seize the firearms of a person who is subject to a restraining order. This would obviously have a serious impact, including in the case of domestic violence.

We are also if favour of stiffer penalties. According to the association, the fact that the maximum penalty is now 14 years is very good news. However, we would like to point out that this bill needs to be consistent with Bill C‑5 to remove mandatory prison sentences for several firearm-related crimes.

The addition of two provisions allowing Canadian police services to use electronic surveillance in cases of unauthorized possession of a firearm and possession of a prohibited firearm is also good news.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Brochet.

I will now turn the floor over to the representative of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police for five minutes.

[Chief Evan Bray, Co-Chair, Special Purpose Committee on Firearms, Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police]

Thank you very much. I very much appreciate this opportunity. Good morning to you all.

I'm speaking to you this morning on behalf of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police. My name is Evan Bray. I'm the chief of police in Regina, Saskatchewan, and am the co-chair of the special purpose committee on firearms for the CACP. The CACP represents chiefs of police and executive police leadership from across Canada.

The CACP believes that the proposed legislation recognizes that stopping gun violence requires a whole-of-society approach, including education and prevention, to address root causes, as well as law enforcement to help stop the criminal elements that are perpetrating violence in our communities. We believe Bill C-21 will help prevent victimization by way of a firearm and will improve public safety.

I just want to drill down on a couple of areas.

First of all, on handguns, the CACP supports a national versus municipal patchwork approach to managing the issue of handguns in Canada. We believe that a handgun freeze is one method of reducing access to these types of firearms, while allowing existing law-abiding handgun owners to practise their sport.

However, we continue to maintain that restricting lawful handgun ownership will not meaningfully address the real issue, which is illegal firearms and illegal handguns obtained from the United States that have led to the disturbing current trend in gun violence that is largely related to gangs, street gangs and more sophisticated organized crime groups.

With regard to firearms smuggling and trafficking, we support the implementation of new firearms-related offences, intensified border controls and strengthened penalties to help deter criminal activities and to combat firearms smuggling and trafficking, thereby reducing the risk that illegal firearms find their way into Canadian communities and are used to commit criminal offences. The CACP welcomes changes that provide new police authorizations and tools to access information about licence-holders in the investigation of individuals who are suspected of conducting criminal activities, such as straw purchasing and weapons trafficking.

With regard to replica firearms, the CACP agrees with implementing initiatives that target the criminal use and diversion of firearms to the illicit market by prohibiting the importation, exportation and sale of replica firearms, specifically those that have a likeness to real firearms and are indistinguishable from the genuine articles from near or far, or that can be altered to convert them into deadly weapons. This is something the CACP urged the government to do in a resolution passed by our membership way back in 2000—22 years ago.

Replicas are encountered in the hands of criminals for street-level extortion, robbery, for personal protection from other criminals and to intimidate or terrorize victims when committing an offence. As a result, there's been a regrettable need for police officers to resort to the use of deadly force in situations where they believe replica firearms to be real. Contributing to police concerns for public safety is also the fact that imitation firearms are largely unregulated and users can acquire them very easily without proof of age, licence or competency.

The CACP is not opposed to recreational activities involving the use of airsoft guns. However, those who use these replicas for recreational purposes and who emphasize the importance of the likeness to real guns and the importance of long-range shooting capacities of over 500 feet per second to enhance the overall gaming experience have likely never found themselves in a real-life situation facing an individual engaged in criminal activity who's armed with one of these guns.

Reducing firearm-related deaths in the cases of family violence and self-harm is an easy one for the CACP to support. The red flag law, the yellow flag law and the requirement to surrender firearms during a legal challenge of licence revocation are impactful ways to help reduce gender-based violence, intimate partner violence and self-harm by limiting access to firearms for those who pose a risk of harm to themselves or to others.

Regarding the mandatory buyback program—and of course there's been a lot of talk about this—and the requirement to make assault-style weapons permanently inoperable, the CACP is still awaiting details on the implementation of such a program and the implications for and expectations of police services in Canada. Having said that, the CACP recognizes and understands concerns that have been expressed by certain provinces in the country about using Canadian police resources to confiscate legally acquired firearms from Canadians.

Ultimately, this early part of the buyback program is essentially an administrative process; it's not a policing issue. As a result, such a program could be managed by entities other than police services, thereby allowing police resources to be focused on those who refuse to follow the new law and, more importantly, on addressing border integrity, smuggling and trafficking.

In conclusion, the CACP supports improving safety for the public and for frontline police officers. Reasonable requirements on responsible firearms owners need to be balanced with protective measures to help mitigate the impact of the worst outcomes of firearms. While we agree with the proposed changes of Bill C-21 in principle, we must now focus on what they mean in practice and clarify the role police services are expected to play in enforcing these regulations.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, sir.

I will now turn the floor over to Mr. Sauvé of the National Police Federation for five minutes.

[Brian Sauvé, President, National Police Federation]

Good morning. Thank you for inviting me to appear today.

My name is Brian Sauvé and I'm the president of the National Police Federation, the certified bargaining agent representing close to 20,000 members of the RCMP across Canada.

Firearms violence is a complex issue that requires a holistic government approach, including improvements to community and social programs, criminal justice system investments and increased health care and policy resources. The NPF has made 11 recommendations in our submissions to the committee, and I will highlight some of them in my remarks today.

First, the legislation primarily targets legal firearm owners who have followed the regulations as opposed to addressing the root causes of firearms violence. The Government of Canada is encouraged to widen its focus, as Bill C-21 narrowly focuses on the tool—the firearm—and not the criminal activity surrounding it. By only addressing the tool, you're failing to address the root problem, and the criminal perpetrator will continue to offend and victimize with different tools or with complete disregard for the legislation, as criminals do obtain firearms illegally today.

Between 2016 and 2021, the violent crime index across provinces rose 30% and the crime severity index rose 10%. Jurisdictions with the highest rates of firearm-related violent crime also have relatively high rates of crime in general. Reducing firearm violence is a key issue and should remain a priority for the government. Canada already has a strict licensing regime for firearms purchases, and the changes proposed do not address issues of organized crime or gang violence, illegal weapon smuggling, systemic causes of crime and emerging threats such as 3-D-printed ghost guns.

In addition, police services need to be properly resourced. Without the adequate resources, increased police mandates apply additional pressures to uphold and maintain public safety. The government needs to recognize the importance of providing additional support to police officers to ensure that they can focus on public safety and crime prevention. This legislation must be accompanied by additional resources for RCMP members and police services across Canada.

Second, the government should develop uniform standards for tracing firearms involved in the commission of a crime, ensuring that police services are adequately resourced to enhance tracing capabilities. Currently, not all firearms recovered as part of a police investigation are sent for tracing. In 2020, only 39% of firearms used in firearm-related homicides were recovered, and of those, only 69% were sent for tracing.

Third, we need to stop the illegal flow of firearms into Canada. While the RCMP and CBSA are intercepting many illegal firearms at the border, gun crimes are still becoming more prevalent. Without adequate resourcing, firearms will continue to make their way into Canada. Partnerships across jurisdictions with judges, prosecutors and government officials, in collaboration with law enforcement, are necessary to facilitate information sharing and for discovering illegal firearm trafficking patterns and crime syndicates. The RCMP's border integrity program must be enhanced to enable proactive RCMP investigative weapons enforcement activity and the dismantling of gangs and organized crime involved in smuggling firearms.

Lastly, Bill C-21 fails to address the increasing concern over the involvement of younger persons in shootings and gun violence. In Toronto in 2021, the average age of persons involved in shootings, as an accused, a suspect or a person of interest, dropped from 25 to 20 years of age. It is estimated that there are over 400 street gangs operating in Canada, and a whole-of-government approach is required to address gun and gang activity. Investments in diverting youth from joining these gangs must be an essential part of the plan.

Law enforcement agencies, governments, schools, social services, neighbourhood leaders and community organizations need to work together to identify and implement effective tools and programs focused on youth at risk of gun violence. Bill C-21 should focus on tackling systemic issues that allow gun and gang violence to take place. We have an opportunity here to create a unique system to deal with this issue by strengthening border controls and imposing stronger penalties to combat firearm smuggling and trafficking, thereby reducing the presence of illegal firearms in Canadian communities and how frequently they're used to commit criminal offences.

Thank you. I'll take any questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you to all.

We'll start our questions now with Mr. Lloyd.

Mr. Lloyd, please go ahead. You have six minutes.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses.

I'm going to start off with the National Police Federation.

We heard from CACP earlier in the meeting that implementing all of these new regulations about guns is mostly going to be an administrative thing, not a policing thing. However, we know that the RCMP and many police forces across the country are dealing with massive issues with staffing challenges.

Can you comment on how the added regulatory burden of this new government legislation could impact the police's ability to carry out their mandate to keep the public safe?

[Brian Sauvé]

I can. I will start by sitting back and saying that every police officer across Canada, especially the membership of the RCMP, is fairly non-partisan. They will uphold and enforce the laws that are enacted by the legislature and interpreted by the Supreme Court of Canada. In this case, regardless of how Bill C‑21, a buyback program or whatever else gets implemented, when called to do their duty of going to pick up from firearms owners firearms that may be considered to be not in compliance with the law, they will do that.

However, it just adds more duties to their already expanding mandate, so at what cost does that come to the Canadian public? It creates larger screens on the dispatch screen. It creates more files for the members to go to. Are we looking at longer wait times for other police presence—

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you. I'm wondering whether resources will be diverted from dealing with illegal gun crime to dealing with legal gun owners who will have their firearms taken away.

[Brian Sauvé]

I would suspect they will. You are adding a job to police officers across Canada.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

At our last meeting, we heard from the Alberta Mounted Shooters Association, who said that their sport, which uses primarily single-action revolvers, will be destroyed because of this handgun freeze.

In your experience, are single-action or even double-action revolvers a weapon or firearm of choice by criminals?

[Brian Sauvé]

I'm not a gun guy. You would have to speak to an expert on that who analyzes gun crime in Canada. It's not really for me to answer.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Okay.

To the CACP, then, are single-action revolvers the handguns you're primarily worried about that criminals are using?

[Chief Evan Bray]

I would say not primarily. The reality is that criminals who are going to use a firearm in the commission of an offence are going to grab and use anything they can. That is why even replica firearms can be a challenge in the commission of an offence. If you're looking at the type of handguns that are being used, I would say it's predominantly more mainstream handguns.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

So it's not your revolvers.

Under this handgun freeze, as I've been made aware by some stakeholders, the reproduction of firearms that were designed before 1898, including the flintlock pistol, which I'm sure the witnesses can see here.... A muzzle-loaded flintlock pistol using black powder could also be banned under Bill C‑21.

Is it your experience as law enforcement professionals that these are being used on the streets?

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I want to confirm—and this is just for my own personal knowledge—that we are allowed to use props in committee.

[A voice]

It's not a prop.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I don't think there's a rule on that. We can't use props in the House, but we often have witnesses distribute samples of various things and so forth. I think it's in order.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The question to law enforcement is this: Is it your experience that these firearms are being used on the streets in the commission of crimes?