Public Safety Committee on Oct. 31st, 2022

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I've never met Ms. Scanlan. I have no insight into her comments or her speculation. I have no idea how she came to those conclusions.

I think that's a question better put to her.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Ms. Michaud.

Mr. MacGregor, please go ahead for six minutes.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister Blair, for appearing before our committee again.

Again, I think the big reason why this committee is meeting today is the appearance of that word “request” twice in the transcript of the recording.

First, the commissioner referred to “a request that [she] got from the minister's office.” Secondly, she complained of “not being able to come through for the minister on the simplest of requests”.

This recording and its transcript has been public for a little while. We're really trying to drill down to the meaning of that word “request”.

Sir, I don't doubt for a second that your office has been talking about this transcript and what it means. Have you come to any conclusion through conversations with your office—your staff or your chief of staff—as to what on earth the commissioner is referring to when she states this twice during a recorded phone call to her subordinates?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Mr. MacGregor, if I may be really clear, I was not a party to this conversation—

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I understand that, but surely your staff could have said, “Maybe she thought it was this.”

We're just trying to understand why the commissioner would refer to this word twice in a recorded phone call to her subordinates so closely after being in conversation with your office.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Mr. MacGregor, you're asking me to engage in speculation and conjecture. I don't believe that's appropriate.

The commissioner herself will be here before this committee in less than an hour's time. This is a question you may want to put to her.

You're asking me about a conversation I was not a party to. You're asking me about things that someone else said and asking me to explain why she might have said it. You have an opportunity to ask the person who actually spoke those words what she meant and why she said it. I'm sure that you'll take that opportunity.

I am not going to engage in speculation or conjecture about what she said or what she might have meant.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Granted, Minister, and I understand. You come up with no theories as to why she may have used those words and you don't want to engage in that—fine.

Those quotes were wrapped around a series of complaints to her subordinates based on how the RCMP was communicating with the public. There was a second quote in the middle of those two words where she states:

...does anybody realize what's happening in the world of handguns and guns? The fact that they're in the middle of trying to get legislation going, the fact that legislation is supposed to actually help police, and the fact that very little information I asked to be put in the speaking notes...could not be accommodated.

We have the reference to a “request” from the minister's office. We have the complaint about what this is tied to.

Minister, do you not see how this committee could not infer from these comments that the “request” from your office, as she's referring to, is not tied to the creating of a public narrative coming up with the OIC that was announced on May 1, 2020. How can we not infer that?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Quite frankly, you're free to engage in any speculation, conjecture or innuendo. That's one of the privileges of a member of Parliament, to come to their own conclusions.

I can only tell you what the facts were. The fact is that I or any member of government never, at any time, directed the commissioner to release this information. She has confirmed the truth of that. The reason she said those things to her subordinates is a question you may wish to put to the commissioner. I can tell you that certainly it was no secret that our government had made a commitment. It was in the throne speech of 2015—you'll probably remember it.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I do.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

It was also something we campaigned on rather vigorously in 2019.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I understand that.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

It was in all of the newspapers, I'm sure you'll recall.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Yes.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

It was in my mandate letter, and I know as a member of the committee you probably read that.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

You even stated that on the record, sir.

I understand the timeline with the OIC. I understand that it was very much in the works. Let's forget for a moment about the questions on requests from your office.

Subsection 5(1) it provides for the appointment of the commissioner, “who, under the direction of the Minister, has the control and management of the Force”. Do you think it was appropriate for the commissioner to be using briefings in Nova Scotia to push your government's legislation, as it seems she is clearly doing in the recording? Do you feel that's appropriate, in your role as the minister for public safety, for the commissioner to be doing that? Shouldn't the policy and the politics part of it be coming from your office and not from the commissioner?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I can speak to the politics of it from my role as a minister of the government and the minister for public safety.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I asked for the appropriate answer, though, on the commissioner in that recording.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

You're asking me to pass judgment on a conversation that the commissioner had with her subordinates.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I'm asking you to pass judgment as her direct superior. You had a role to play as the minister for public safety.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Keep in mind that in many respects that is an operational matter. The commissioner was having a conversation with her subordinates about an operational issue, which always includes the release of public information. How the commissioner chose to do that, and how she chooses to explain herself, I leave that quite appropriately to her.

Let me just share this with you. I will tell you there was only one incident in the time that I was the minister for public safety that I issued any directive to the RCMP. I did it by ministerial directive. It was done in writing. It was made public. It was a ministerial directive that prescribed time limits for the RCMP response to ATIP requests. It was the only time I exercised that authority under subsection 5(1) of the RCMP act to issue a directive to the RCMP.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

In my final 20 seconds, Minister, I want to make one request. Will you table with our committee all emails and communications between your office and Commissioner Lucki that happened between April 18 and 28 relating to the mass shooting and its aftermath? Will you table those with our committee, sir?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Let me be clear that I have always responded to requests from this committee.

I might suggest, Mr. Chair, that if this committee makes a decision to request certain documentation, subject to issues of privilege and classified information, I will co-operate. I always have co-operated with this committee in providing the documentation that I'm able to provide it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

That ends the first round of questions. We'll start the second round with Ms. Dancho. We will probably have to abbreviate this round at some point.

Go ahead, please, Ms. Dancho, for five minutes.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you.

Did you communicate with the commissioner, or did anyone from your staff communicate with the commissioner or her staff using any apps, or was it just emails, phone calls and text messages?