Public Safety Committee on Nov. 3rd, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome, everyone, to meeting number 45 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

We will start by acknowledging that we are meeting on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin people.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House Order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

In accordance with the committee's routine motion concerning connection tests for witnesses, I am informing the committee that all witnesses have completed the required connection tests in advance of the meeting.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Thursday, June 23, 2022, the committee resumes consideration of Bill C-21, an act to amend certain acts and to make certain consequential amendments (firearms).

Today we have two panels of witnesses. In the first hour, with us by video conference we have Regional Chief Terry Teegee from the British Columbia Assembly of First Nations. From the Federation of Sovereign Indigenous Nations, we have Vice-Chief Heather Bear, fourth vice-chief. From Women of the Métis Nation - Les Femmes Michif Otipemisiwak, we have Ms. Melanie Omeniho, president.

We will start with five-minute statements by each group.

Regional Chief Teegee, please go ahead for five minutes.

[Regional Chief Terry Teegee, Regional Chief, British Columbia Assembly of First Nations]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and good morning.

First of all, I want to acknowledge the territory that I'm calling from, the unceded, unsurrendered, continually occupied territory of the Lheidli T'enneh.

I want to thank all the committee members for attending today, and also Vice-Chief Bear and the Métis Nation.

Since we have a very short time, I want to get into our concerns and recommendations. I think we can all agree that we want safer communities, and part of ensuring that our communities are safe includes greater restrictions on access to weapons like handguns and assault weapons.

The federal government's initiatives to restrict or freeze the sale or transfer of such weapons under Bill C-21 is commendable in this regard. However, we are very concerned about the lack of clarity with respect to red flag or yellow flag laws that are applicable to first nations people specifically on reserve and in first nations communities.

Handguns and assault-style weapons are not used for hunting. However, the provisions of Bill C-21 will establish red flag and yellow flag laws and provide no guidelines for how those new laws would apply to first nations.

This is significant, as it may affect the possession of firearms such as long guns or rifles, which are commonly and responsibly used by first nations in our first nations reserves and communities and in traditional or treaty territories for hunting purposes. Parliament must not overlook this issue if it involves possible restrictions to aboriginal and treaty rights to hunt, which have been affirmed in section 35 of the Constitution Act of 1982 and also in the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples Act, which was passed last year.

First nations women, girls and 2SLGBTQQIA+ people experience some of the highest rates of gender-based violence and intimate partner violence in the country. At the same time, first nations men and women are overincarcerated at staggering rates. First nations people remain Canada's fastest-growing prison population, despite decades of well-intentioned but ultimately ineffective criminal legal system recommendations and reforms that have failed to redress systemic racism, sexism and colonialism within the criminal justice system.

As I said, first nations people are already overincarcerated and overpoliced at disproportionately high rates. It's not clear how this proposed legislation may contribute to or enable increased discriminatory police practices or negative interactions with law enforcement.

Gangs certainly are a growing problem in first nations communities and reserves, but this legislation provides no new tools for first nations police agencies to address gang and gun violence, which is one of the ostensible objectives of the proposed bill. Gang violence stems from chronic issues such as poverty, lack of services, unemployment and intergenerational violence. Addressing these root causes would do more to reduce gang violence than imposing further restrictions on law-abiding firearms owners. We are looking for more co-operation between non-indigenous police forces, such as the RCMP, and our first nations and indigenous police forces.

Our recommended amendments are as follows.

The AFN recommends that the provisions of Bill C-21 dealing with red flag and yellow flag laws be altered to ensure that first nations inherent and constitutional rights are respected.

We recommend that you clarify how red flag and yellow flag laws will apply to first nations people, specifically first nations reserves.

We recommend that an oversight mechanism be included to ensure that the chief firearms officer consult with first nations with respect to red flag and yellow flag orders and ensure they do not restrict access to firearms commonly used in hunting.

We recommend that Bill C-21 be implemented to support first nations police services and ensure that the resources they require to maintain law and order within their jurisdictions are provided specifically in relation to root causes of gangs and gun violence.

We recommend that Bill C-21 be implemented to support first nations prevention programs for youth in relation to gang violence and illegal guns.

Finally, we recommend that Bill C-21 be implemented to support first nations prevention programs targeting gender-based violence and violence against first nations women, girls and 2SLGBTQQIA+ people.

Fundamentally, the AFN asserts that the Government of Canada must conduct a process to obtain the free, prior and informed consent of first nations as required by article 19 of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, now embedded in Canada's own act on this matter.

Thank you for the time, and certainly we look forward to your questions.

Mahsi cho.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

We'll now go to Vice-Chief Bear. Please go ahead for five minutes.

[Vice-Chief Heather Bear, Fourth Vice-Chief, Federation of Sovereign Indigenous Nations]

Thank you. I'm speaking from the beautiful unceded, unsurrendered Treaty 6 territory this morning.

Thank you for asking the FSIN to appear as a witness on this important hearing regarding firearms legislation.

The FSIN promotes and protects the interests of 73 first nations in the province of Saskatchewan, and we are committed to honouring the spirit and the intent of the treaties, as well as the promotion, protection and implementation of treaty promises. I wish to speak today about the first nations' inherent, treaty and constitutionally protected rights to hunt, fish, trap and gather, and the continued struggle that our people face when it comes to systemic racism.

The assertion of our right to hunt is fundamental to the treaty promises that were made to first nations. We understand that Bill C-21 is being put forward to address public safety concerns and includes a freeze on hunting, red flag and yellow flag laws, provisions to prevent the smuggling and trafficking of illegal firearms, the prohibition of air guns and changes to the Criminal Code.

First nations are aware of safety concerns when it involves the protection of vulnerable people and likely have no issues with the freeze of handguns, or red flag laws, as our first nations are plagued with poverty, addiction, gangs and a drug crisis that seems to be worsening every day. It's one of the reasons we call for resources to establish our own legal systems, which include tribal police forces. When it comes to the safety of our nations, we support legislation that protects our women and LGBTQ+ persons and our citizens.

While we recognize the need to have the provisions to protect individuals who may be in immediate danger, when it comes to the yellow flag laws and the Criminal Code changes, there are concerns that these provisions could be abused to target first nations citizens. This is especially concerning for treaty sustenance hunters, who will be impacted by the yellow flag laws when they choose to carry a licence. The legislation provides that anyone can contact a chief firearms officer, a CFO, to report someone under the yellow flag regime. It could lead to the potential abuse of this section by having someone complain to a CFO with little information, thereby triggering an investigation.

Everyone in Saskatchewan knows that tensions are high between private land users and treaty sustenance hunters. It is therefore concerning that some private land users could report anyone they see out hunting—which many do already—and that the sustenance hunter could have his licence revoked and his guns confiscated. When guns are confiscated from sustenance hunters, it impacts them and their families when they have merely been trying to put food on the table.

When guns are confiscated it may also impact the whole nation, especially those who hunt for ceremonial purposes, in that sometimes we only need traditional food for ceremonies. These ceremonies include feasts. We also hunt to feed our people at funerals and to celebrate. We hunt for a lot of gatherings and occasions, so when you confiscate guns, you are doing a whole lot more than just taking away a gun.

If there are no safety issues and there is no issue of domestic violence or any kind of violence, then taking away a gun impacts our nations and our citizens' ability to assert our inherent, and treaty and constitutional rights. We also view our guns as a tool of our first nations sustenance hunters.

Now we know that this new law is about revoking a licence, but many of our hunters do not get a licence because their treaty did not require a licence for our people to hunt. First nations people have an inherent and treaty right to hunt, and do not require a licence or PAL to assert that right. Despite this, our hunters are harassed by conservation officers and the RCMP.

While the intent of Bill C-21 is to address public safety issues, I would recommend amendments to ensure that it is clear in the legislation that treaty hunters do not need a PAL or a licence when asserting their inherent, treaty and constitutional right to hunt. This is the reason we did not agree with some of Bill C-71, and this new legislation is another piece of imposed law that we have to deal with, especially when our people experience systemic racism. We know that our people are overpoliced and are overrepresented in the legal systems and jails. This new law talks about an exception for sustenance hunters, but we know that if a first nations person is asking for an exception to allow him to hunt, many judges would have a hard time letting that happen, because our people are not treated fairly and are assumed to be guilty of something.

Canada needs to do better at addressing the systemic racism that exists in the colonial system. Canada needs to change these systems so that our people are treated equally.

Canada needs to work with us on bringing back our own laws. Canada needs to provide the resources so that we can establish our own systems.

Canada needs to be mindful of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples as it relates to our ability to practise our ways of life. That includes hunting for sustenance and ceremonial purposes.

Canada also needs to take note of articles 2, 5, 11 and 15, and play an active role in preventing the ongoing systemic racism and injustices experienced by first nations every day.

If Canada can do all that, we will achieve true reconciliation.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Vice-Chief.

I now invite Ms. Omeniho to make an opening statement. You have five minutes, please.

It seems we have lost Ms. Omeniho. We will try to get her back. When she comes back, we will invite her to make her statement.

Meanwhile, I think we need to proceed with questions. I apologize to anyone who has questions for Ms. Omeniho. We'll do the best we can.

Actually, I'll tell you what. We're going to suspend for a couple of minutes to see if we can get Ms. Omeniho back.

The meeting is suspended.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I call this meeting back to order.

Apparently, Ms. Omeniho has lost her Internet, so she won't be joining us. We will try to find an opportunity to bring her back, perhaps later in the meeting, at the next panel or whenever we can fit her in. You have my apologies.

We will start our questioning at this point with Ms. Dancho.

Go ahead, please. You have six minutes.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much to the witnesses for being here and sharing with us your thoughts on this bill. I'm very glad to say that we are able consult indigenous leaders in Canada. I think that's very important for this bill and for anything that may impact treaty rights and your constitutional rights.

First off, I was wondering what consultations were done with you or other indigenous leaders in Canada that you may be aware of during the formulation process of Bill C-21. Are you aware of any consultations? Have you been consulted?

Vice-Chief Bear, you can go first.

[Vice-Chief Heather Bear]

Thank you for the question.

This has been somewhat troubling. We have not had proper or meaningful consultation on any matters regarding gun legislation. This seems to be an ongoing concern among the leadership within our region, especially when it has to do with hunting.

With regard to handguns, at some times, our trappers carry those as well. We're looking at the Far North, especially. There's virtually no knowledge of this among our land users.

In terms of who is being impacted on the ground, there has not been any meaningful knowledge sharing or consultation.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Vice-Chief.

I believe what you're alluding to is that often there are trappers or those who are in the Canadian wild quite a bit who, although they may carry a long gun and perhaps a hunting knife, carry a side arm or a handgun. That's in case there's an emergency situation with a large, aggressive animal. They don't have enough distance to get their barrel out, so they carry a handgun. We've heard this quite a bit from those in this industry, so thank you for bringing that up and ensuring that it's on the record.

I would like to ask Regional Chief Teegee the same question regarding consultation.

[Regional Chief Terry Teegee]

There hasn't been any meaningful consultation or involvement with first nations, at least at this level.

I am also the portfolio holder for justice and policing for the Assembly of First Nations, along with Ghislain Picard. There hasn't been any meaningful consultation or engagement in regard to this bill. That's very concerning, considering that it may have detrimental effects when it comes to our rights, title, interests and living up to the United Nations declaration.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Regional Chief Teegee.

Both of you have mentioned a bit of concern with Bill C-21.

Vice-Chief Bear, you mentioned with Bill C-71 when you came before the committee that you were concerned it would impact the ability for indigenous peoples to pass along their culture of hunting and trapping.

I would appreciate it if you'd both elaborate on that as well.

Go ahead, Vice-Chief Bear.

[Vice-Chief Heather Bear]

If I could also circle back, in addition to the lack of meaningful consultation, there has never been any capacity for engagement to do that properly.

I apologize, but when it comes to.... My goodness, could you repeat the question?

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

When you came before the committee before on Bill C-71, you voiced your concerns that Bill C-71 may be detrimental to first nations' ability to pass on their culture and heritage in Canada. Do you want to elaborate on how Bill C-21 may or may not have a similar impact?

[Vice-Chief Heather Bear]

Any time there are laws that apply to first nations and pertain to hunting, fishing or trapping, there is always that risk, especially when guns are seized. I'm particularly concerned about investigations.

The hunters hunt not only for food for themselves. We talk about ceremonies. We talk about culture. We talk about rites of passage. The infringement of taking away that gun certainly inhibits that from happening, and it therefore infringes on that constitutionally protected treaty and inherent right.

Sadly, in Saskatchewan we do have those tensions. There seems to be an ongoing problem and issue with settlers and CFOs targeting our hunters. Adding more legislation would cause harm to hunters.

Really, we're looking for criminals here. The spirit and intent of this legislation is to address the criminality of guns with certain persons. Hunters are not out there committing crimes. They're out there defending poverty, feeding elders and feeding single parents. Of course, even with that right, we were promised we would have the freedom to hunt and that our hunting grounds would always be there. Taking away that gun is certainly an infringement.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you very much to both of you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Ms. Dancho.

We'll now go to Ms. Damoff, please, for six minutes.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to both of our witnesses for being here today.

Just as a point of clarification on the consultation, I know that Minister Mendicino met with, I believe, the national chief of the AFN, the Métis National Council and ITK prior to the bill being introduced. I myself reached out to all three women's organizations, and met with NWAC and Les Femmes Michif. I was unable to get a meeting with Pauktuutik, not for lack of trying. Discussions were held.

Regional Chief Teegee, we've spoken a few times about criminal justice. I apologize if it didn't get through to you, and to you, Vice-Chief Bear.

One thing that did come up in my conversations with the indigenous women's organizations was concern around gender-based violence. Regional Chief Teegee, you brought up that indigenous women have the highest rate of gender-based violence across the country. What they said is that a woman's right to live shouldn't trump a man's right to hunt. That came from an indigenous woman. That's not me speaking here. How do we balance the right to hunt with the firearm in the home and indigenous women being at risk?

Regional Chief Teegee, maybe we could start with you.

[Regional Chief Terry Teegee]

In terms of consultation, at least for my region, I think it's one thing to go to our head office at the AFN and speak to the national chief, or even me. The problem is getting down to the grassroots people and talking about how this law would infringe those practitioners, as stated by Vice-Chief Bear. It's about how this would affect our hunters and trappers, those people who utilize hunting for part of their food, for social and ceremonial purposes and for, really, part of their being from generation to generation. I think more needs to be done.

Most of my attention on things like this is drawn towards looking at policing. We do have a task force on policing that's looking at going from program funding to essential services funding, which is very much needed for our first nations policing, especially with our tripartite agreements for our own police forces.

In terms of making sure it is safe for women, I really believe that perhaps this issue is not going to be an easy one to deal with, especially with regard to homes where there is violence. This is why at the AFN we're calling for more preventative measures and more resources so prevention can occur. It could be long guns. It could be handguns. It could be any sort of violence within the home. I think this speaks to the lack of resources within first nations communities to make sure women are safe and children are safe as more of a preventative measure.

I think it's really something that needs to be looked at within the home. Dealing with those issues means more preventative measures, and one of the things we are recommending to the committee is more resources.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Regional Chief Teegee, we're in agreement on that. We're also in agreement with moving forward on first nations policing. I want you to know we're completely in agreement on prevention as well. However, when we have a firearm in the home, and a woman....

One of the arguments I put forward with colleagues on the red flag provisions is that women can call the police if there's an issue with a firearm in the home. However, I know that many indigenous women are not comfortable calling the police. There was the case in the north where an indigenous women called the police to have a firearm removed and she was arrested for breaching parole because she had been drinking. There's a lack of trust in police for women to call, so using the red flag provisions simply gives another option for people to have to move forward.

I'm just wondering whether you have any thoughts on that.

[Regional Chief Terry Teegee]

Yes, I think it's about more clarity on these provisions. The recommendation we have is to really understand how the red flag and the yellow flag provisions within this bill affect indigenous peoples and our first nations communities. We need more clarity.

On those examples you shared, there are very similar cases and very similar scenarios that I've heard of as well about the lack of trust in the RCMP. The lack of trust with policing is one of the matters we're trying to deal with at the AFN, especially in regard to going from program services funding to essential services funding.

The other matter that needs to be dealt with is building trust within the police force. Certainly it's not an easy task. I think with this bill there needs to be more clarity on how it affects not only our first nations communities, but our treaty rights, our rights as indigenous people, especially in light of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Ms. Damoff.

Ms. Michaud, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses for being with us.

I will first turn to you, Chief Teegee.

You seem to support some of the elements in Bill C‑21, but you expressed concerns about some of the measures it contains, in particular red flags and yellow flags. You wonder about the applicability of these measures to your communities and worry that the rights of first nations would not be respected.

Could you tell us more about the yellow flag and red flag measures? What worries you about their applicability? You said it was unclear. What is unclear in the bill as it is currently worded?

[Regional Chief Terry Teegee]

Well, I think what's not clear to me or clear to many indigenous people is that far too often well-intentioned bills and laws can potentially be utilized against first nations peoples. I believe Vice-Chief Bear gave a good example. Perhaps there is a report on somebody or perhaps somehow this is utilized in nefarious ways to really infringe on a person's ability to hunt and/or an indigenous person's ability to really access sustenance—food, resources. I think far too often there's too much leeway.

It's unclear how this bill is going to be utilized and, I would say, who the chief firearms officer is. Far too often, even within policing, we've seen before that perhaps the officer—the firearms officer—utilizes this in a way that really punishes indigenous people. To me, if the rules aren't clear and there is too much leeway, those liberties will be taken and will be utilized by people against our indigenous people. They will be utilized in a way that really affects our right to hunt. That's what I'm afraid of. I think it really comes down to who is utilizing this—more than likely it would be a firearms officer or police officer—and what the rules are, and when, where and how you utilize this bill.

Certainly I agree with the safety aspect, because far too often what we've seen, as many of you in this committee have seen, are handguns and some other firearms utilized in relation to gangs and whatnot. That's always concerning for many first nations as well.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I understand your concerns.

From my perspective, this point seems clear. For example, in clause 36, the final decision would seem to rest with the chief firearms officer. The clause gives the chief firearms officer the power to revoke an individual’s licence if they are convinced that they participated in an act of domestic violence or stalking.

This same clause sets out some exceptions. The first is if the individual needs a firearm to hunt or trap in order to sustain themselves or their family. You had some concerns, as you are worried about the right to subsistence hunting and trapping. However, it seems clear to me, in the bill, that these exceptions are to be taken into account in the chief firearms officer’s decision.

Do you find this exception reassuring? Would you have wanted to see it taken further? Do you think this clause in particular could undermine first nations’ rights?

I would like to hear more of your thoughts on this clause. I understand your point of view fairly well, but it seems clear to me that exceptions would apply, and that they would address what seems to be a concern to you.

[Regional Chief Terry Teegee]

Some of the provisions within Bill C-21 set out what the task of the firearms officer will be. I think, ultimately, this is the cautionary tale. For example, there are many rules and regulations in regard to police officers, yet there's a high rate of death and injury of indigenous people in custody.

The reason I relate that to this is we need to be clearer on what the firearms officer's duties are and what they can and cannot do. I think it really comes down to the officer and making sure there is accountability with that officer. It's to make sure they follow the rules on what they can and cannot do.

Even though this law could set out many rules and provisions, it really comes down to the practitioner. If a practitioner of the chief firearms officer doesn't follow these rules or takes liberties with this law and these rules, what accountability measures do we have?

We could have the best version of Bill C-21 that we could have, but it sometimes depends on who the person is and how good the intentions are. Far too often, in our experience as indigenous people, those liberties are taken to the next level.