Evidence of meeting #57 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendments.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
Thank you for that.
To rephrase, as a hunter myself and for the hunters I know, the firearms we use are firearms that have been used in this country for decades and decades.
Would you say that the vast majority of firearms used by hunters you represent are models and makes of firearms that have been used for a very long time in this country?
5:20 p.m.
Manager of Policy, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters
Certainly, currently yes. That would be the case.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
Are you seeing new models of firearms coming out for the purpose of circumventing Canadian laws? Are people using these firearms for hunting?
5:20 p.m.
Manager of Policy, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters
Unfortunately, I don't have an answer to that question, Mr. Lloyd. I'm sorry.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
Dr. Langmann, I have a similar question.
Are you seeing evidence that there are new models of firearms being manufactured by firearms companies for the purpose of circumventing Canadian law? Are these being used in crimes? Is this something that is truly an issue?
February 14th, 2023 / 5:20 p.m.
Assistant Clinical Professor, Department of Medicine, McMaster University, As an Individual
Criminals will use any firearm they can obtain. There's not a firearm, specifically. They're mostly looking for handguns, but they will use whatever they can get.
The SKS was brought up earlier. It's a firearm that's been around since the 1940s. It's commonly used. It was very cheap and was sold broadly in this country after the collapse of the Soviet bloc. We've seen a lot of those being used because they're widely available, but it's due to a commonality reason. Something that is common will be used.
All types of firearms are extremely dangerous. The bolt-action rifles, what we're calling hunting rifles, have been used to kill police officers. Those have been used to kill patients I've seen. They are extremely dangerous. They are more dangerous, I think, than what's commonly called an assault rifle, because the calibre and the energy from the projectile are a lot higher than most assault rifles like the AR-15.
To me, it doesn't make sense.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
That was another interesting thing.
Some previous witnesses made the distinction between military calibres and hunting calibres.
Mr. Ryckman, is there such a distinction? Are there truly such things as military calibres and things that are hunting calibres?
5:25 p.m.
Manager of Policy, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters
I would argue that most people are talking about military firearms more than anything. There is so much overlap, and not just in calibre, as you mentioned, between true military firearms and the civilian versions that evolve from some of those military firearms.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
A NATO standard is a 7.62 millimetre calibre round. Is that smaller than what most hunters would use for hunting?
5:25 p.m.
Manager of Policy, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters
Unfortunately, the variation, even within Ontario and within the Ontario deer hunting population.... There is significant variation in preference for the calibre and type of firearm, and so on and so forth. I don't think I can speak accurately about the variation across Canada, but I imagine it's significant.
The choice of a firearm, the choice that a hunter—
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
There are commonly used calibres that are larger than what the military uses.
5:25 p.m.
Manager of Policy, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters
It's very common, yes.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
By classifying military calibres as “large calibres”, we're capturing more hunting calibres than we're capturing calibres of cartridges that are used by the military.
5:25 p.m.
Manager of Policy, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters
It's quite possible, yes.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
Statistics Canada came out with a very interesting...back in December 2021. It's on firearm violence. Of all violent crimes, 0.47% had a rifle or a shotgun present. They were not necessarily used, but present. We're talking about a very small amount. Out of that, a significant number of those were gang-related.
When we're talking about legal firearm owners and the legislation we're bringing forward here today, we are talking about a fraction of a fraction of half a per cent of total violent crimes in this country. We're missing the whole boat on 99% of crimes in this county.
5:25 p.m.
Manager of Policy, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters
I would like to answer. It probably won't be quick, though.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
5:25 p.m.
Manager of Policy, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters
Sure.
You're absolutely right, in that ultimately we need to be helping the people who need help. We need to take guns away—whatever guns they are—from people who shouldn't have them, plain and simple.
We need to ensure that our enforcement bodies have the funding, the training and the tools they need to deal with things such as organized crime and gun violence. That includes the upstream determinants of involvement in crime and so on and so forth.
Finally, we also need to ensure that the justice system treats violent crime, including gun crime, with the severity it deserves.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon
Thank you, sir.
We go now to Dr. Hanley.
Please go ahead. You have five minutes.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
Brendan Hanley Liberal Yukon, YT
Thank you.
Thank you for the chance to appear before this committee. I'm speaking to you from the Yukon. I want to thank all the committee members around the table for the tremendous work you've done on this bill.
Consider me as somewhat of a newbie to the committee, but nevertheless, I will spend maybe a minute and a half with Dr. Langmann.
Thank you for your work, Doctor. I think you have a long history of careful work on this.
I just want to know what your confidence is in the data, because I've also heard that there is actually a lack of data and that we really don't have enough data to be able to correlate the association between particular firearms—whether legally or illegally acquired, for example—and incidents. I'm also worried about the perception that, in what we've achieved so far with gun control as one aspect of the prevention of gun violence, maybe we've gone too far.
I want to know how confident you are in the amount of data we have, and if you believe we should have more data in order to be able to really understand what's going on.
5:25 p.m.
Assistant Clinical Professor, Department of Medicine, McMaster University, As an Individual
You're asking someone who is a statistician if they'd like more data, and the answer is yes. We always like more data.
The good thing is that actually there is a very low number of mass homicides in this country, so that alone speaks to something. Partly, it's a population issue. However, in terms of analyzing the data, I do what are called data sensitivity tests to see how good the data is at predicting something. The answer is that it's actually fairly good at predicting whether, for instance, certain legislation has had any beneficial effect. In terms of homicide, spousal homicide, mass homicide and suicide, etc., I can say that.
I would love, of course, to have data regarding where the guns were obtained and specifically how they were used, as well as the background of the perpetrator in terms of whether or not they have a criminal background and whether the gun was used in a familicide and those sorts of things. Unfortunately, a lot of that data is also private and protected. Statistics Canada has certain controls in terms of keeping that information, but of course that would be something for the government to mandate and work on.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
Brendan Hanley Liberal Yukon, YT
Thank you.
We'd love to have you elaborate on that, but I want to move on. I want to just point out the CMA policy statement on gun violence, where they point out through international review that civilian access to firearms with rapid-fire capability does result, or appears to result, in an increased incidence of mass shootings. It's really to point out the overall correlation between poor control availability of firearms and mass shootings, which is I know one of the intents of this Bill C-21.
I want to quickly turn back to Dr. Ryckman.
Dr. Ryckman, you've written quite eloquently. I've read some of what you've written on your website about trying to find common ground, so maybe in an attempt to find some common ground here, I'm sure you're aware of many of the concerns expressed from my constituents in the Yukon. I haven't yet met anyone in the Yukon who does not deplore gun violence. I also want to commend what I just heard in the previous hour in the testimony of the witness from PolySeSouvient: a powerful testament to the value of hunting.
I see that there is a possibility to converge on some common ground. Do you see gun violence in Canada as a urban issue, a rural issue or both or neither?