Public Safety Committee on Jan. 27th, 2026

[Matt Strauss, Conservative, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you. I've never met that colleague.

I'm interested in your opinions about that.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Here's another one. Pat Kelly said, “Bill C-26 is a bill that addresses an important and growing topic. Cybersecurity is very important, very timely. I am glad that, in calling this bill today, the government sees this as a priority.”

[Matt Strauss, Conservative, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

I'm sorry, but I'm not interested in those opinions.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

That was the member for Calgary Rocky Ridge, Alberta.

[Matt Strauss, Conservative, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

I'm sorry, but that has no bearing on my concern or the concerns of my constituents.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

I also have something from Garnett Genuis, member for Sherwood Park—

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

Thank you very much, Minister.

Mr. Strauss, you have the floor.

[Matt Strauss, Conservative, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you very much.

Do you accept that the powers in this bill potentially touch on the fundamental freedoms protected in section 2 of our charter, the freedom of expression, if an individual were to find themselves not receiving services from an ISP?

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

We have 20 seconds left.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

We have the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and every single piece of legislation abides by it. It's a constitutional responsibility, and we are making sure that's the case, period.

[Matt Strauss, Conservative, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you.

Do you regret violating section 2 with the invocation of the Emergencies Act, as the Federal Court—

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

MP Strauss, I'm sorry to interrupt you. That's all the time we have.

Let me turn to MP Lavoie.

Mr. Lavoie, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Steeve Lavoie, Liberal, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you for joining us today.

Allow me to put on my economist’s hat today. I come from the world of economics. I have worked with businesses for over 25 years. Cybercrime is a nightmare for businesses. In manufacturing, when a machine stops working, we know what to do to fix it. However, for most businesses, a cybercrime-related problem is truly one of their worst nightmares.

The business community firmly believes that we must give ourselves the means to protect Canada, to protect businesses, to protect investments and, ultimately, to protect jobs. Protecting the jobs of Canadians is important.

That being said, I would like to talk to you a little bit about predictability today. I sit on another committee that deals with trade. The two words we hear most often are “predictability” and “unpredictability.” We have always known that businesses need predictability in order to invest and attract investment. Right now, we are living in a world of unpredictability, and we are being told that this is the new normal. As they say, they have to keep learning to dance with it.

How does this legislative framework provide more predictability and certainty for Canadian businesses so that they can continue to invest, grow and innovate with confidence?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

That is a very good question.

Indeed, there are many things in the world that we cannot control, particularly those that originate in the White House or occur south of our border. However, there are many things that we can control, including how we control and secure our telecommunications services and networks.

Your question leads me to explain the cost of cybersecurity. I mentioned this in my introduction, but every year, cyber-incidents and cybercrime cost the Canadian economy approximately $5 billion. A cyber-incident costs businesses an average of $7 million, which is enormous. This does not necessarily apply only to large companies; it also affects small and medium-sized businesses.

Our goal is therefore to provide the predictability you referred to. It is unfortunate that we were not able to pass this bill earlier. There is an urgent need for action. We are lagging behind our allies, and certainly behind the Group of Five. We must therefore take action.

[Steeve Lavoie, Liberal, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

You mentioned billions of dollars of investment in our economy.

Can we expect that an increase in cybercrime will create new specialized jobs in the technology and digital sectors in Canada?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Yes, absolutely.

There are a number of things. We believe that we can increase employment in the telecommunications sector, but also in the digital services sector in general.

The Prime Minister often talks about the importance of artificial intelligence. We believe that many people working in the telecommunications and digital services sector will also be very useful in developing an artificial intelligence industry in this country. We have already seen major players in the telecommunications sector, such as Bell and TELUS, invest heavily in artificial intelligence. Even recently, agreements have been signed with a very important Canadian company in the field of artificial intelligence, namely Cohere, which we want to continue to develop.

So yes, I think the potential is huge, but we still need a more developed regulatory infrastructure. The issue of security is at the heart of what is missing in the Telecommunications Act.

[Steeve Lavoie, Liberal, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I would like to add something to what you said earlier. You mentioned a cost of $5 billion for businesses. We currently estimate that amount to be $5 billion dollars, but it has enormous repercussions for employees, the supply chain and customers. So it's eagerly awaited.

Thank you.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

Thank you, Mr. Lavoie.

Ms. Kirkland, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Rhonda Kirkland, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here.

I'm pleased to hear some of the things that I'm hearing today. It sounds like you're open to recommendations from the Privacy Commissioner. I think it sounds like you can understand why leaving out the standard of what's necessary and proportionate would create uncertainty about how these powers will be applied. I'm saddened to hear that you left them out. You said that you inherited the bill. It's almost like you just rubber-stamped it without looking at what that would have meant. I would have liked to see that not having to be part of the amendment process, but we are certainly happy to hear that you and your government are open to those amendments.

At the October 30 meeting, the Centre for International Governance Innovation raised concerns about proposed sections 15.1 and 15.2 for the Telecommunications Act, which give the Governor in Council or the minister a broad authority to impose secrecy around certain orders and decrees. They recommended that clear guidelines be included to govern the use of these “extraordinary” non-disclosure powers.

Can I ask why the government chose not to include those guiding criteria in the legislation to limit how these secrecy powers can be used?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

I think it's important for people to remember that since we're living in a much more chaotic and dangerous world, the government has to deal with a lot of hostile actors that can sometimes go after our critical infrastructure, including the state one. We indeed deal with intel, with intelligence services information. While the industry minister and the Department of Industry are not in charge of that, they will work with other departments, including the public safety agencies, Global Affairs Canada and Defence to make sure we can help them address the threats.

We have an entire policy infrastructure when it comes to national security, and we've been able to put guardrails regarding the way we address sensitive information, particularly when we're dealing with hybrid warfare and particularly when it comes to Ukraine. What we did was develop NSIRA and NSICOP. That's why.... I think that in the first part of the bill, years ago, when it was first presented, that wasn't there, and there was great work done by parliamentarians to make sure it would be there. Now, I think the parliamentary oversight has been added, and that's why I'm confident that we can deal with things in a way that is consistent with protecting the interests of Canadians.

Now, I hear you—

[Rhonda Kirkland, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Again, I only have limited time, Minister.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

—regarding the criteria of proportionality, because I think that's also something that we could really look at.

[Rhonda Kirkland, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Yes, exactly. We're past that for sure.

The Privacy Commissioner warned that the minimum privacy requirements in Bill C-8 are “insufficient” to govern “the sharing of information with foreign governments”, particularly where sensitive or personal data may be involved. Given those concerns, what specific limits does Bill C-8 place on the sharing of Canadians' information with foreign governments or entities?

I ask this with the backdrop that, during the election, the Prime Minister publicly stated that China is “the biggest security [threat] to Canada”. In March 2023, you accused China of “trying to sow division in many democracies.”

I lived in China for a couple of years. I've experienced what that can look like.

Does the government still stand by that assessment today? If so, how does Bill C-8 ensure that sensitive information collected under this legislation cannot be shared directly or indirectly with hostile states or bad actors?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

I think that we can't look at Bill C-8 in a silo. We have to look at it with all the other legislation that is linked to public safety and national security and all the agreements we have with states around the world. We only have agreements on intelligence with our allies. That's how the Government of Canada operates and protects Canada's interests in a very complicated geopolitical world.