Science and Research Committee on June 16th, 2022

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Thank you to my colleague, and thank you, Madam Chair.

Going back to Mr. Tucker, I'd like to talk about McMaster and how we become a leader in nuclear on the international stage. What are your plans, currently?

[Dave Tucker]

We think that an extremely important role in enabling the country to move forward with the adoption of SMR technology is to run our community demonstration deployment, as we have announced plans to do. If we are successful in our timeline, that will be one of the first demonstration deployments in the world, and it will happen at McMaster University.

The planned reactors currently under way are, appropriately, at Darlington and at Chalk River in Canada. We want to be the first to show how that can translate to a community deployment and benefit a community, and we want to create the training associated with that.

The second thing we can do to be leaders is to utilize that experience in training the next generation of professionals and scientists that will operate, maintain and support those reactors and their deployment in the unique ways that Dr. Novog elaborated on.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Are there any trade schools in the neighbourhood that are partnering with the SMR program?

[Dave Tucker]

There are not currently, but absolutely, our hope is that this will become the heart of a training program for nuclear engineers and also for the tradespeople and technologists that will feed this industry.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Do you have any association with trade unions representing members that work currently in nuclear—either a support panel or a union or a labour input mechanism to the work you guys are doing?

[Dave Tucker]

We don't have a direct relationship, but, for example, there was a benefit to being part of a workshop sponsored by the Canadian Nuclear Association, chaired by one of Ken's leaders, the VP of new nuclear, on workforce development. That was very pan-Canadian and included all sectors of the workforce that are needed to do this. The conversation has started, and we will absolutely welcome them into this project as we see how we can use it as a pivot for training.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

I'm going to pivot a bit, just because of something Ken said earlier. I'd like some clarification.

It is all of the above. I get that approach, and in your words, it can't be just nuclear, but we can't succeed unless nuclear is at the table. Is that fair? We could do without solar if we had more wind in that kind of equation, but there's nothing out there that has baseload capacity like nuclear.

[Ken Hartwick]

That's correct, and it's very regionally dependent. Some provinces are blessed with more power—Quebec, B.C. and Ontario have a fair amount—but to double the size of a system, every technology needs to play a bigger role, including nuclear. I think we need to think of it that way, versus any one thing being the answer.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Just on the business side of things, there were questions posed, such as whether or not this would be profitable. I wouldn't want the federal government getting into the building and regulating or the building and operating of nuclear facilities across Canada, but I would like organizations or companies like yours and other private or Crown corporations that are currently in the business to do so, so that it's really a business decision that's up to you, rather than what we feel should happen—

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Mr. Tochor, I'm sorry to interrupt. Do you want a written answer?

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

If you agree with that statement, put it in your words and write us your response.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Ken Hartwick]

Okay—

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Perhaps you could send a written statement, Mr. Hartwick.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

If you do—

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thank you, Mr. Tochor.

We'll now go to Monsieur Lauzon.

You have five minutes.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Thanks, Madam Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being with us today.

Dr. Novog, you've seen the evolution of nuclear reactors over the past 10 years. You've been there from the beginning. You've seen them change, and they will change again. You probably remember the first one that was created, and you can compare it to what exists today.

I know you don't have a crystal ball, so you can't predict the future, but I'll ask you anyway: when will we succeed in creating a functional, measurable, productive and environmentally friendly system?

[Dr. David Novog]

It's an excellent question.

Right now, I think 100% of my students usually end up at OPG or at Bruce Power, on projects related to either refurbishment or the new nuclear builds that OPG is pursuing. A great deal of effort is being focused there on this first success. It's important to have a first success. It gives confidence to the public and also to the private sector, to invest and to continue investing.

I think that 2028 is a great target date for the first SMR. I would hope that the second, the third and the fourth.... I would like to see the 10 to 15 SMRs that it takes to really reach a point of cohesiveness by 2033 to 2035, because then it should be a fully commercial operation.

There shouldn't be a huge role for government, except in regulation. Whether the reactors are accepted by the community or not.... I mean, they have their own decisions to make with regard to energy and other issues.

That's the time frame I look at to have a number. Just to have a target date, I would like to see it by 2033 to 2035.

I know that Saskatchewan is looking at three or four reactors, as is New Brunswick. Ontario's OPG is looking at four. By the time we finish just the builds that are being discussed within that time frame, I think we will be in a very good position. We'll be in a good position, not just nationally, but internationally, to play a leading role as other countries start pushing in that direction.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

You tell us that you don't own the company. Are you in line with different corporations or companies that are ready to work on nuclear systems?

[Dr. David Novog]

We have some research projects that are sponsored by some of these vendors that are proposing the reactors. It's not just me, but other researchers at Mac.

My SMR training program is funded solely by the federal government, through NSERC. In that respect, the training is kind of technology agnostic. We don't try to say which technology is better.

We're trying to talk both about the nuts and bolts of the reactor, but also about new things, which Ken mentioned, like indigenous engagement, social awareness, and even some stuff on finance, which engineers typically don't like to talk about but still need training on. We're starting to create more well-rounded engineers in that training program, people who maybe have a wider vision than engineers might typically have when they graduate.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Okay. Thanks.

Mr. Tucker, you are in the process of evaluating this technology over 18 months. That piqued my interest. I know you can't predict the future either. However, can you tell us whether the results may benefit remote regions?

I'm a member of Parliament from a remote riding. It's always more difficult to supply our industrial establishments with high‑voltage power because Hydro‑Québec's lines don't necessarily reach those regions.

Are we able to consistently provide 600‑volt power to attract industry to remote areas?

Is your primary goal to provide this energy to the regions first and foremost?

[Dave Tucker]

I believe there are huge benefits that come with energy abundance and energy wealth in terms of the spinoffs that can be achieved beyond just keeping the lights on in the community.

Dave Novog mentioned the ability to have agriculture in greenhouses in some climates, to produce local food. Powering industry is certainly part of that equation. An optimally deployed micro modular reactor, where you're generating electricity, using the heat and storing the energy for when you need it, we believe, will have many spinoffs for the community.

I don't have a crystal ball, but I certainly believe passionately that this is an important pathway forward for this country in achieving greenhouse gas reduction and energy prosperity.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thank you, Mr. Lauzon, and thank you, Mr. Tucker. We appreciate the good questions.

Now we will go to Monsieur Blanchette-Joncas, for two and a half minutes, please.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Hartwick, you mentioned in your opening remarks that, in order to achieve the government's net‑zero targets, it will be critical to implement and use this new technology, namely, small modular reactors currently in development.

Do you have any data to share with us on this, including the potential to achieve net‑zero through this technology?

[Ken Hartwick]

The work we've done for Ontario, which I'm glad to share with the committee, if appropriate, looked at what the load would be for Ontario if you electrified all the things I talked about, the three big sectors. Then you just simply back into how much new hydro can be built, how much solar can be effectively put in place, then how much nuclear you need.

We've done this work. We very openly share it, and we don't believe Ontario can get there without a significant build of nuclear to complement the other technologies we have.