Science and Research Committee on Oct. 17th, 2022

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

I'm going to run out of time. I'm sorry, Madame.

When you talk about the journals or different reviews out there, would they be receiving any federal funding that you know of?

[Linda Cardinal]

Yes, the journals normally receive funding from the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council of Canada. However, those journals aren't required to be truly bilingual to receive it.

More effort has been made at certain times, but no longer now. That could be changed. For example, a directive could be sent to various so‑called bilingual journals encouraging them to publish more articles in French in order to deserve their funding. They could also be asked to show us how to meet the bilingualism requirements of the next Official Languages Act.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thank you, Mr. Tochor.

Thank you both. We appreciate it.

We will now go to Mr. Collins for six minutes.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses for presenting here this evening.

I'll start with Professor Lapointe-Gagnon.

You were cut off while providing your recommendations. Could you finish the recommendations you wanted to present to the committee? I'll then open it up to questions for all the witnesses. Take your time if you need to.

[Dr. Valérie Lapointe Gagnon]

Thank you for the opportunity to discuss my recommendations.

First, the government should contribute to the long-term funding of post-secondary institutions in francophone communities across Canada. As my colleague Éric Forgues said, education is a provincial jurisdiction, but the federal government can still intervene, particularly in official languages. In many instances, institutions can secure funding through federal-provincial partnerships. That's the case in Alberta and Ontario. We now find ourselves in situations where provinces are genuinely reluctant to cooperate, and we need to find a way to overcome that reluctance by establishing programs.

The funding received shouldn't be used solely to stamp out fires, but also to project into the future, to hire new professors and to establish the next generation. That's what currently troubles me most. How can we conduct research in French if we don't replace existing positions? How can we conduct research in French if there's no next generation of researchers and the only way to continue in the research sector is to switch to English, which exacerbates assimilation?

Another of my recommendations would be to support the Service d'aide à la recherche en français, or SARF, which Acfas has established. As my colleagues Linda Cardinal and Éric Forgues said, researchers wishing to conduct research in French face many barriers along the way, in particular a lack of access to revision of their applications. Research in French is a highly competitive sector. If, tomorrow morning, I submitted an application in French for a grant from the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council to my university, the University of Alberta, no one would be there to revise it. On the other hand, if a colleague wants to submit a similar application in English, he'll be surrounded by experts who can assist him and offer him recommendations. So there's a considerable discrepancy between those services.

Lastly, I recommend that we send out a strong message about the legitimacy of research in French, and that can be done in various ways. It starts with the support of Bill C‑13. We must also encourage departments to use research in French to gain a clearer understanding of the specific needs of francophone communities. We can also send a strong message by establishing a program of Canadian francophone chairs and by supporting francophone and bilingual scientific journals. We must also support a student exchange program. Our students currently go on exchanges with students from Belgium and France, but they should also have exchanges with students from Acadie and Manitoba. There is a wealth of resources that can be used to understand the francophonie better. Lastly, the major research councils must be made aware of the challenges involved in research in French at francophone minority institutions, which, in many instances, are small institutions where students are not trained in French at the master's or doctoral level. Francophone researchers therefore don't have access to those students, who could act as research assistants, a fact that penalizes them relative to anglophone researchers, who are surrounded by master's and doctoral students who support them in their research.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you for the recommendations, Professor.

As a follow-up, can I ask what roles secondary institutions play in ensuring their faculty are supporting publications in French and the French community—those who are studying and publishing in French?

You mentioned investments from both the federal and provincial governments from a jurisdictional perspective. However, what onus falls on the secondary institution to live up to some of these goals and objectives as well?

[Dr. Valérie Lapointe Gagnon]

Are you referring to post-secondary institutions?

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Yes, that's correct. I mean post-secondary.

[Dr. Valérie Lapointe Gagnon]

They're actually moving away from this role. I'm thinking of the big, mostly anglophone universities. The University of Alberta, for example, advertises its bilingualism, but, when it comes to supporting its researchers and really encouraging that research, it simply doesn't do it.

We don't have access to the same services as our anglophone colleagues. That's the case at many universities, and it's often the case that there aren't a lot of resources for researchers at small francophone institutions where research departments are just starting up, as at the Université de l'Ontario français. Many English-language universities are completely abandoning their role and don't understand the particular role of our institutions, which exist to meet the needs of the community, but also to support the francophonie.

The western Canadian francophonie would be at a great loss without the Campus Saint-Jean in Edmonton. The same is true of the Cité universitaire francophone at the University of Regina. Communities and services are attached to these campuses, and that creates an ecosystem in which the francophonie becomes legitimate and possible. That's what must be encouraged.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you, Professor.

I have less than a minute, Professor Cardinal. In your rush to complete your opening remarks in five minutes, you couldn't elaborate or expand on Bill C-13, and all three witnesses have now referenced it.

Do you want to spend the next 40 to 45 seconds on the importance of that, and what you want to elaborate along those lines for Bill C-13?

[Linda Cardinal]

Yes, thank you very much.

In 45 seconds, I can only encourage you to vote for Bill C‑13 because it will give public servants some flexibility to create a special program for research in French, which doesn't exist at Canadian Heritage, in particular, or at Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada. Those departments could work together to identify minority research needs and to establish a foundational program to promote research in the minority communities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thank you so much.

Thank you, Mr. Collins, and thank you again to all of our witnesses for this really important testimony.

We will now go to Mr. Blanchette-Joncas for six minutes.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Greetings to the witnesses who have joined us this evening for this important study.

My first question is for Professor Cardinal.

You mentioned Bill C‑13 in your opening statement. I'll begin with a very simple question. Do you think we have substantive equality between English and French in research and scientific publication in French in Canada in 2022?

[Linda Cardinal]

No, there's no substantive equality. This is why Bill C‑13 is important: it's based particularly on the principle of substantive equality as the principle for interpreting language rights. Bill C‑13 contains a special provision on research in French and acknowledges that French is also a scientific language in all disciplines.

My colleagues Ms. Lapointe-Gagnon and Mr. Forgues have also clearly shown that there's no substantive equality in research. The testimony that you heard last week and that I also listened to confirmed that. It's not by chance that Acfas and the Association des collèges et universités de la francophonie canadienne play such an important role in promoting research in French in the public space. This is an issue that concerns the entire Canadian francophonie, including Quebec.

As our colleague Vincent Larivière has shown, our colleagues in Quebec published in French 10 or 20 years ago, but those same colleagues, particularly at the Université du Québec à Montréal, now publish in English. Why? Because we're told that we have to do everything in English if we want promotions, if we want to succeed and if we want an international reputation. As a result, we do a lot in English. In my case, part of my career is taking place in English. We aren't rejecting English, but, at the same time, some intellectual traditions in Canada are being lost because we aren't able to work in French or promote the transmission of knowledge in French.

Because there are major traditions of research in French across Canada. I'm trying to document them. Ms. Lapointe-Gagnon is a historian and is working on this. We have knowledge to pass on and are currently unable to do so.

We're now in the same situation as the Scandinavian countries, where national languages are being lost at the universities as a result of programs that are solely in English. Students now prepare theses in English only. Even in our universities, francophone students write theses in English only because they're told they have to do everything in English if they want to have a career.

In addition, since our colleagues no longer publish in French, now we can't even teach using French-language materials.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

I'm going to go back to that, Mrs. Cardinal.

You say that Bill C‑13 will help to achieve substantive equality between English and French. Do you think there are any other provisions in the bill that could be improved to achieve substantive equality between English and French in research and scientific publication?

[Linda Cardinal]

I hope Bill C‑13 is passed. It could definitely use some minor improvements, but, in the present circumstances, the longer we delay passage, the less progress we'll make. By treading water, we're actually going backwards.

I can't wait for this bill to be passed so officials can introduce the necessary tools and means to implement it. That'll make for a more dynamic federal government.

There's also the Action Plan for Official Languages, which should provide for research funding. I'd like us to have a real French-language research program in Canada. The main characteristics of that program could be set forth in the action plan.

Passage of Bill C‑13 would send a message to all departments that they also have to look at how programs…

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mrs. Cardinal, getting back to my question, is anything missing from Bill C‑13?

We understand that this is an important bill, but we don't modernize the Official Languages Act every year. Since we're doing it now, I'd like to know if the bill is lacking any essential elements so we can proceed with language planning and achieve substantive equality between the two languages.

[Linda Cardinal]

What I would like is for you to pass Bill C‑13 as it stands. Some minor changes could always be made. I know that Acfas has proposed a minor amendment to the provision on research, but that's a detail. I think we're at the stage where you have to pass the bill.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you very much.

You talked about what urges people to conduct research and to publish in English. Would you please tell us about the ranking of international systems and how the universities work? What makes people publish in English? How does that undermine the use of French in research and scientific publication?

[Linda Cardinal]

Last I heard, French-language publications weren't even ranked. What's considered are publications in English and the journals in which they're published. There are also other criteria, such as awards won.

A list is published in Maclean's magazine. There's also the Shanghai ranking, which is one of the most important. According to it, the University of Ottawa is now one of the top 140 universities in the world for research. Everyone's delighted.

However, these rankings don't necessarily improve the situation of French in research because the trend toward publishing in English devalues everything else. That's the way it is for most languages. Studies show that there is English on one side and all the other languages on the other…

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

I'm sorry to interrupt you, Professor Cardinal.

Thank you, Mr. Blanchette-Joncas.

We will now go to Mr. Cannings for six minutes.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you, and thanks to all the witnesses for being with us this evening.

I'd like to continue on the theme of the last question asked by Mr. Blanchette-Joncas. This is kind of the elephant in the room, or whatever that's driving this difficulty with doing research in French, not just here in Canada but around the world. I just pulled up some data that showed that French researchers in France, in one decade from 1987-97, went from publishing 25% in French to 15%. They lost 10% of publishing in French, and this is in France.

What we are tasked with here, at this committee, is trying to find ways for the federal government to assist French research in Canada. I wanted to ask you, Professor Cardinal, and maybe the other three if we have time, what can the federal government do to turn this big boat around, when you have researchers around the world wanting to publish in English, not just for the awards but for the advancement of their careers? It's all about citations, and it's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy that if you publish in English, that will work out better because English is the lingua franca of science.

I could go on, but I shouldn't. I want to hear from you. Please go on from where you were speaking before about what the federal government can do to change this.

[Linda Cardinal]

Thank you very much for asking me that question and allowing me to complete my remarks.

You're right in saying that this is a global phenomenon. The issue in Canada is similar to that in Switzerland and Belgium in that French is one of the official languages. Since we're in the minority in Canada, even if you include Quebec, we're at a twofold disadvantage.

The federal government can definitely play a role in this regard. As I said in my first recommendation, it should establish a foundational program to promote research in French across Canada.

Ms. Lapointe-Gagnon discussed the Service d’appui à la recherche en français, which Acfas has developed. I think the federal government could offer its support. The project has received the support of the Power Corporation of Canada, the Government of Quebec and the Agence universitaire de la Francophonie. So all that's missing is federal government support. That would be something very solid.

Second, clear directives must be sent to the various scientific research councils. We've told them on many occasions that not enough projects are submitted in French. Projects in French are no longer solicited, and no effort is being made to raise interest in conducting research in French. However, these councils are funded by the federal government.

Since we have quotas for music in French in Canada, we could also set quotas for research conducted in French in certain sectors. That's obviously harder to do with the science sector, but other things could be set up. There are the standard scientific publications, but there are also all kinds of other publications. Awards could be established for research in French and publication in French.

The Fonds de recherche du Québec awards a prize for publication in French. We're fortunate because the chief scientist of Quebec, Rémi Quirion, who is very much in favour of the Canadian francophonie as a whole, has expanded that competition to include the Canadian francophonie. However, we can't simply wait for Quebec to take the lead in this matter. The federal government must also work together with stakeholders to take on its leadership role.

We can also discuss journals. Journals may be provided with funding, but bilingual journals must also publish in French. The titles of their journals can't be the only thing that appears in French; their content must as well.

As Ms. Lapointe-Gagnon said, we have research stays in other countries, but not in Canada. We could have a program of researchers in residence at French-language universities. When I was regional director of the Agence universitaire de la Francophonie, I developed a program with MITACS and Brazil so the Brazilians could join francophone research teams in Canada. However, I can't do the same thing with all Canadian provinces, I find that somewhat surprising.

Acfas has offices in the regions, and the federal government could provide them with more funding. In some cases, they operate on $3,000 a year. Thus not a lot of money; so it could be increased.

Doctoral and master's-level fellowships could also be established to promote research in French.

I don't know whether you want me to continue.

Ms. Lapointe-Gagnon discussed Canadian francophonie research chairs. I think there's really a…

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I was hoping to hear from the other witnesses as well—

[Linda Cardinal]

I'm sorry.