Science and Research Committee on Oct. 31st, 2022

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you to both of our witnesses this evening.

Ms. Niemann, you studied in Germany. Is that correct?

Can you tell the committee about your experiences or your observations of publishing research internationally in a language other than English?

[Tanja Niemann]

Thank you for the question.

There is a heavy tendency of publishing in English for, I think, everybody working in universities and the academic sector because there's this predominance of English as the lingua franca in science.

Nonetheless, we have a lot of colleagues in Europe, for instance, who are working at the same not-for-profit publishing endeavours as us. More and more there is the wish to continue to have these venues where we can publish in multilingual ways and publish about national, regional and local topics in the language where we live and where we experienced these questions we have about society.

There is a tendency around the world where, more and more, we try to preserve these publishing venues where we can publish in different languages. Still, it's mainly in the humanities and social sciences because the STEM sector is so dominantly English.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you very much.

During our last meeting, Marc Fortin, the vice-president of the research grants and scholarships directorate at the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council, told the committee that on average “only 10%” of the applications received are in French.

Do you have any thoughts on why the number of applications is so low? Do you have suggestions that would help increase the number of researchers applying for federal funding in French?

[Tanja Niemann]

I do not know those figures because they concern other disciplines, not the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council. I am not sure if those figures are comparable in my field.

That being said, I think there is a perception that we would have better luck if we submitted an application in English, the claim being that if we did, we would be better understood, have access to a broader pool of evaluators and increase our chances of getting a grant.

These are questions we ask ourselves when we send in applications to the federal government. We wonder whether we have a better chance of getting a grant if we submit an application in French or in English. We also wonder about the language abilities of external evaluators.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

I wanted to mention that I did have the honour last week of attending the NSERC prizes for 2022 over at the Museum of Nature, which I would encourage everyone to go to if you haven't been there. It's an amazing facility.

Anyway, what I wanted to point out was that pretty much all of the presentations were done in French. There was no interpretation. Not all of these researchers were from francophone universities. There were U of T, the Toronto Metropolitan University and U of W. I found it quite interesting that the presentations were primarily done in French.

We have heard contradictory information about access to funding for French researchers. Some witnesses have said that post-secondary institutions do not sufficiently support French researchers, and some say there's a lack of funding. Others say that funding is available but their researchers aren't applying for it.

Can you give the committee your thoughts on where the challenges lie and what you think can be done to support French research in Canada?

[Tanja Niemann]

I believe that if we dedicate more resources specifically to French publications and support this in more than the usual way, we can increase the attractiveness of publishing and submitting these requests in French.

The cost may sometimes be higher when it comes to journal publishing, which is the space I work in. I know that there are additional fees for translation, for instance. Sometimes journals attract manuscripts in English and then translate these in order to publish the original research in their journal to make it an attractive journal. To have good applicants, they need to do so, but these are additional funds and additional costs, and they really need to decide to spend or not to spend on these things.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

I have a question for Mr. El Zaïm. I'm sure my time is almost running out.

The committee heard testimony that certain areas of study, including science, engineering and mathematics, are less likely to be offered as francophone post-secondary programs or have research published in French. Tanja has alluded to that. Quickly, please, are certain academic disciplines more representative of francophone research publications than others, Mr. El Zaïm?

[Dr. Adel El Zaïm]

Thank you for your question, Ms. Bradford.

Naturally, some disciplines are more represented in a given language, as confirmed by many studies on the matter. However, the reasons listed alone do not explain the predominance of one language such as English, for example.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Do I have any more time or am I over, Madam Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thank you so much, Ms. Bradford. That takes you to your six minutes.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Thank you for the questions.

Thank you to our witnesses.

With that, we will go to Mr. Blanchette-Joncas for six minutes.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Let me begin by welcoming the witnesses who are joining us this evening and thanking them for being here.

Dr. El Zaïm, as always, it is a pleasure to welcome you to the committee. I remember very clearly the comments you made during your last appearance. You said that French was fundamental, including in the area of research.

In your speech you made some recommendations. You talked about the possibility of translating all the research and publications in both official languages.

Several witnesses who appeared before the committee have told us that this could be part of the solution, but some people had doubts and concerns about getting scientific publications, including in certain human or social sciences, translated. According to those people, when scientific research is done, language is more than just words, it is a way of thinking about and seeing things. It would not necessarily be possible to translate every scientific publication.

What do you think?

[Dr. Adel El Zaïm]

Thank you.

In fact, many countries are already making a tremendous effort to get the sum total of knowledge available translated into their national language because those countries understand that these translations are needed for their citizens, their students and their researchers. Countries are even translating old books, such as books of German, Russian or Chinese philosophy, into national languages. I am thinking about Arabic, for example, which is my mother tongue. Countries are devoting a tremendous amount to the publication of translated works.

Professional translation is feasible. It takes an effort to create the necessary infrastructure such as the development and publication of terminologies, for example. I know that Canada and Quebec are very strong in developing terminologies. We have offered solutions to the entire world in French and in English and we can continue that effort. This takes a lot of investment, and obviously some concepts are different, but when we translate the work of a German philosopher into French, there is an art to the translation. We know how to translate them and how to transfer the terminology into the target language.

I dare say it is feasible.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Dr. El Zaïm.

Should the federal government's grants be awarded on the condition that the research and of course the scientific publications are translated in both of Canada's official languages?

[Dr. Adel El Zaïm]

I would say that should absolutely be the case, but that is a personal opinion. I think there should definitely be translation from English to French.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you.

In your recommendations, you mentioned increasing the number of scientific journals. I think you know the picture, but when we look at what has happened in the past 60 years, we see that there is only 8% of francophone content in the new scientific journals. What can you propose to reverse this trend?

[Dr. Adel El Zaïm]

I propose the publication of translations, but also financial support for researchers and institutions to get these publications translated or even written in the second language from the start, French in our case.

I strongly suggest the translation and publication of original French products into English. We want to promote French, but we also want Canadian anglophone speakers, evaluators and researchers to have access to francophone scientific product.

This does not happen on its own. It takes funding. Érudit is a good example.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Dr. El Zaïm.

Witnesses recently came to committee and reported that the rate of grant applications submitted in French was lower than the rate of grant applications submitted in English. This raises a lot of questions.

When applications are made in a language other than English, the research and publications that follow are necessarily in English. Do you think that the federal government should make recommendations or proposals to reverse this trend? For example, should the government not grant more funding for scientific content, research and publication in French?

[Dr. Adel El Zaïm]

We have to assure researchers, research teams and applicants that their applications will be properly analyzed and evaluated. We had an example of this yesterday: the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada assured us this was the case.

Some things are obvious. If a person studies artificial intelligence in English, it might be difficult to draft a proposal in French. That is why one of my first recommendations was on teaching French and education in French.

Yesterday, I had the opportunity to read the bibliography of a Canadian personality known internationally for their work in artificial intelligence and I noticed that 90%, or almost all of the publications were in English, when the person is a francophone and even a polyglot, who lives in a francophone city. However, their discipline is in English.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Dr. El Zaïm, I would like your advice on what should be done to find solutions to this.

Should there be incentives, including for grants? Should we ensure that in the selection criteria, the federal government's subsidizing organizations award points for scientific research and publication in French?

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

Mr. Blanchette-Joncas, might you like to ask for a written response there? It's a short question.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

I believe I heard Dr. El Zaïm say yes, Madam Chair, but I am not sure.

[Dr. Adel El Zaïm]

Yes, indeed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kirsty Duncan]

A written response is perfect.