Evidence of meeting #14 for Status of Women in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was trafficking.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sgt Lori Lowe  National Coordinator for Human Trafficking, Immigration and Passport Branch, Border Integrity, Federal and International Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Yvon Dandurand  Senior Associate, International Centre for Criminal Law Reform and Criminal Justice Policy, University of British Columbia

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

I call to order meeting number 14 of the Standing Committee on the Status of Women.

Good morning to all of you, especially to our witnesses.

Sergeant Lori Lowe is from the RCMP immigration and passport branch, border integrity, federal and international operations. Lori is the national coordinator for human trafficking.

Yvon Dandurand is from the International Centre for Criminal Law Reform and Criminal Justice Policy at the University of British Columbia. He is also the dean of research and graduate studies at University College of the Fraser Valley.

I welcome both of you to our committee this morning as we commence a study on the very important topic of human trafficking. We will have sufficient time this morning, so you don't have to feel rushed. It is important for us as a committee to get a good feeling about where the issue is, what has been done and what needs to be done. I understand you both have a huge breadth of knowledge that you are prepared to share with us, and then answer questions from the committee members.

I ask Sergeant Lowe to go forward first.

11:10 a.m.

Det Sgt Lori Lowe National Coordinator for Human Trafficking, Immigration and Passport Branch, Border Integrity, Federal and International Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Thank you, Madam Chair. It's my pleasure to meet with you today to discuss the actions being taken by the RCMP to combat human trafficking.

Human trafficking involves the recruitment, transportation, or harbouring of persons for the purpose of exploitation, typically in the sex industry or for forced labour. Children are particularly vulnerable to exploitation as they have limited comprehension of events unfolding around them.

Traffickers use various methods to maintain control over their victims, including force, sexual assault, and threats of violence. The extent of victimization must be recognized as a significant aspect of this crime. Persons are reduced to and treated as nothing more than a commodity.

Although the United Nations estimates that one million people are trafficked throughout the world every year, the extent of trafficking into, through, and within Canada is not known, due to the clandestine nature of this activity and the difficulty in distinguishing between traffic victims and illegal migrants.

In 2004, the RCMP released a strategic intelligence assessment that examined current and historical trends in human trafficking in Canada. This assessment found that Canada, as a developed nation with a strong, stable economy and generous social assistance programs, was an attractive destination, and that persons trafficked into Canada were destined for the domestic and United States markets. This assessment provided an initial analysis of the nature and scope of trafficking in persons in Canada since 1999. Over time, however, the identification of cases and gathering of information will allow for an enhanced understanding of both international and domestic trafficking.

The first human trafficking charge under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act was laid in Vancouver in April 2005. This case surfaced when an employee at a massage parlour called the police to report that she had been assaulted by the owner. An investigation ensued between the RCMP and the Vancouver Police Department, and the owner was charged with various offences under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act and the Canadian Criminal Code. This case is currently before the courts.

Today I would like to discuss with you the RCMP's priorities for combatting human trafficking, including awareness initiatives, victim protection, and strengthening partnerships. The mandate of the immigration and passport program is to work in concert with domestic and foreign agencies at all levels, as well as the community at large, to protect and enhance the quality of life through education, prevention, and enforcement. At the same time, our strategy is to combat and disrupt organized migrant smuggling and the trafficking of persons.

To fulfill these priorities, the immigration and passport program developed Canada's first Human Trafficking National Coordination Centre, in Ottawa to address national and international components of human trafficking investigations. The centre was fully staffed in May 2006 with four RCMP officers and a civilian member analyst.

To better describe the centre, it can be compared to a clearing house or a coordination centre, where staff help to create new initiatives such as educational and training tools for law enforcement; develop policy; coordinate investigations, including requests from international law enforcement agencies; and provide analytical services. This is a new concept, and while there will be some growing pains, I'm very proud of our dedicated staff and am pleased with the number of initiatives we've been able to roll out in such a short period of time.

In addition to the new centre, the RCMP is aggressively developing initiatives to address victim protection. The safety and security of victims must be considered at all stages of the criminal justice process, and appropriate measures must be taken, when necessary, to protect victims. We are working to find better ways to identify the people who have taken a chance on an alluring job opportunity, only to have their dreams of a better life turned into a nightmare of abuse and humiliation. We need to help law enforcement rescue them and prosecute the offenders.

As you might expect, in order to meet those goals, a comprehensive assistance and protection protocol must be in place to provide victims with protection and adequate services. This will also give law enforcement a better chance of reciprocal assistance from the victim, and ultimately the prosecution of their traffickers.

Our Pacific region immigration and passport section, in collaboration with the Human Trafficking National Coordination Centre, developed a human trafficking victim care and protection flow chart. It follows a victim step by step, from point of identification through risk assessment; to provision of services, protection, and investigation; to repatriation or receipt of status. This section has made significant strides in developing trusted relationships with non-governmental organizations and faith-based groups.

In partnership with the B.C. Ministry of Children and Family Development, they are developing a working group comprising social service providers, law enforcement agencies, and other government departments directly involved with human trafficking.

Once established, this group will develop a strategy that coordinates their resources in order to deliver a comprehensive and timely response for identified victims. This group is laying the groundwork for improved coordination among partner agencies that I believe will be adapted by immigration and passport sectors across Canada and shared with law enforcement agencies globally.

Taking a closer look at training or educational initiatives, the RCMP, in collaboration with our Pacific region, the human trafficking centre, the Department of Justice, Citizenship and Immigration Canada, and the Canada Border Services Agency, created a highly informative thirteen-minute video that's being shown to law enforcement agencies across the country. The video incorporates information from a variety of experts, including investigators, academics, and non-governmental organization leaders who work with victims. It explains the difference between human smuggling and human trafficking and offers advice on how to identify victims, the elements of a human trafficking investigation, and, most of all, the importance of working together.

Other new awareness materials include a poster titled “Make a Difference”, which lists indicators on ways to identify a victim and contact information.

We've also created a contact card that is similar in appearance to a business card but contains tips on identifying potential victims of human trafficking, as well as phone numbers where specialized RCMP officers will be available 24/7 to provide direct assistance to law enforcement agencies on questions they have regarding human trafficking issues.

Furthermore, RCMP officers are raising the profile of human trafficking among the law enforcement agencies and governmental and non-governmental organizations through regional conferences, informal gatherings, and formal presentations, including international venues such as Interpol and Europol, where we share Canadian strategies with others.

Interpol is the only international forum providing exchanges on intelligence and strategies to deal with human trafficking worldwide. This gathering of resources promotes the widest possible mutual assistance between police authorities.

The RCMP immigration and passport program has been proactive in enhancing our international partnerships regarding human trafficking. Some of the partnerships we're currently involved in include the Canada-China working group, the federal Interdepartmental working group on trafficking in persons, the Steering Committee of the Interpol Working Group on Trafficking in Women for Sexual Exploitation, the Europol annual experts' meeting on trafficking in human beings, and the annual meeting of police experts for the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe.

Finally, while we are making good strides, of course, there is still more work to do. Some of our future goals include: developing and administering workshops for NGOs to enhance cooperation and facilitate sharing of information; providing information to Canadian peacekeepers travelling to source countries relating to escalation of abuse and exploitation of victims through personal involvement; working with the Canada Border Services Agency to develop training for law enforcement and border agents, who often have first contact with potential or actual trafficking victims; coordinating regional conferences with law enforcement officers to discuss specific investigations and share intelligence; partnering with municipal bylaw officers to maintain checks on agricultural farm workers; assisting with the development of awareness programs for orphanages and foster agencies domestically and abroad; working with the International Organization for Migration and RCMP international liaison officers to develop a structure for the repatriation of victims; and developing an inventory of victim protection measures throughout Canada.

In closing, Madam Chair, let me reiterate that the issue of human trafficking is of the utmost importance to the RCMP. It is our belief that combatting human trafficking requires a multi-faceted approach, and the RCMP is committed to continuing to work closely with our many partners in responding to this crime locally, nationally, and internationally.

Human trafficking is not an issue that can be addressed by law enforcement alone; it must include multi-agency collaboration. We look forward to developing and implementing a broad range of initiatives in the future to increase awareness of this heinous crime.

Thank you for having me appear today.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much for that important information.

Mr. Dandurand.

October 3rd, 2006 / 11:20 a.m.

Yvon Dandurand Senior Associate, International Centre for Criminal Law Reform and Criminal Justice Policy, University of British Columbia

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for this opportunity to appear before the committee today.

As you mentioned, I am affiliated with the International Centre for Criminal Law Reform and Criminal Justice Policy in Vancouver, which is a United Nations-affiliated research institute, as well as with the University College of the Fraser Valley.

My colleagues and I, over the last four or five years, have had all kinds of opportunities to work on the issue of human trafficking and have studied the problem. We were involved initially, more than five years ago, in the discussions that led to the adoption of the United Nations Convention Against Transnational Organized Crime and the protocols thereto, of course, as observers and as part of a committee of experts. We were also involved in designing and developing legislative guides for member states on how to implement these international instruments with the support of the Government of Canada. We were involved in developing a tool kit for member states on how to implement the protocol on trafficking in persons, and also developing handbooks for law enforcement officers, both in Canada and in other countries. We have worked locally and nationally with our colleagues from the RCMP and other police forces. We also work internationally, again on human trafficking, with colleagues from Central America and with UNICEF in Vietnam and in Myanmar. So we have gathered a fairly good appreciation of the complexity of the problem and would like to volunteer some comments today on how much progress we have made in Canada and what's still ahead of us in terms of actions to counter the problem.

As Sergeant Lowe has already mentioned, we don't have really good information in Canada, or systematic information, on the extent of the problem. In fact, I understand this is the first hearing of this committee on the issue of human trafficking. There's no doubt in my mind that during the course of your work you will hear different views on how important the problem is and how it presents itself in Canada. This disagreement on the nature of the problem and the extent to which it afflicts us in Canada is partly due still, in spite of the new legal definitions of the problem, to disagreements or different views about what constitutes a problem. It's also due to the fact that this is not an easy problem to study, because obviously all of that crime occurs in a clandestine fashion and is obviously difficult to measure. Organized crime does not publish annual reports, so it's quite difficult to get a good sense of what it is.

On the other hand, in the last five to ten years, basically around the globe people have paid more attention to the issue, and we're getting a little wiser about how the problem presents itself and what works and what doesn't work. I think it would be fair to say that the international community is still trying to identify some of the best practices, but we know a lot more today about the problem and how best to respond to it than we did, say, ten years ago.

One of the issues that you will probably notice is that in Canada there are still very few official cases of human trafficking--only a handful. By “official”, I mean cases that have come to the attention of law enforcement and have been treated or recognized as cases of human trafficking. Once you notice this, you have to wonder what's really happening. Are we really the only country in which there is very little human trafficking? Is it true that there aren't many cases out there, or is the problem merely one where a lot of victims in Canada still do not find it safe to come forward and ask for assistance?

In Canada we don't yet have a good way of keeping track of cases. I know our colleagues from the RCMP have worked on developing databases, including intelligence databases, that allow them to keep track of the information that comes to their attention, either in the form of complaints or in the form of intelligence. Still, there are many issues in Canada about studying the problem and figuring out how it presents itself. For instance, there are very few, if any, official cases of trafficking in children in Canada. Are we supposed to believe we'd be the only western country with no incidents of child trafficking? That would be very surprising.

We need to deal with the issue differently and be more vigilant. Obviously this is not a case that comes to the attention of the police spontaneously. It is an area where proactive law enforcement is really important, and that is why the work described earlier by Sergeant Lowe is so important, not only at the level of the RCMP but at the level of all police forces in Canada, and I'll come back to this in a minute.

I've suggested to you so far that we're not as effective as we should be when it comes to fighting human trafficking in Canada, and that's not an indictment of Canada. We are more or less where other countries are. The reasons why we tend to fail to respond as well as we could are many, and I'll list a few here for you, mostly because you will encounter them again in your work and in your deliberations.

The first reason why we're not always as good as we could be in fighting human trafficking is that there is still disagreement about what trafficking is, and that's why it's important to do a lot of public education and public awareness activity, so we develop a common language, a common understanding of what the problem is, and distinguish it from other very important problems such as sexual exploitation of sex trade workers and others, which may or may not involve human trafficking. It's important that we collectively gain some clarity about those different problems and the best ways to deal with them.

Another reason why we're not as good as we could be is that we still have limited knowledge of how human trafficking presents itself in Canada, and that leads us to think we need to do more systematic investigation. Researchers need to work in cooperation with law enforcement and others, NGOs, and people who have first-hand knowledge of the issues so we get a better understanding.

The other reason we have trouble is that the phenomenon evolves rapidly. The modes of operation of human traffickers change constantly. They try to avoid detection. They find different ways. So when you turn the spotlights in one direction, they go somewhere else. There's a lot of what criminologists would call crime displacement. They use different methods. They go to different places. They use different routes. And therefore whatever you think you know about human trafficking is only true of human trafficking last week or last year, because right now they're proceeding in a different way.

That means we have to be a little more efficient at sharing information, particularly among law enforcement agencies, but not just among law enforcement agencies. I'll get back to this, but clearly this is an area where law enforcement needs to work very closely with community groups, with people who work with new immigrants, with people who work with various ethnic communities in Canada, and so on.

Another reason why we are not as good as we could be is that we have a hard time measuring the success of our efforts. So when you don't know whether what you're doing is producing results, it's quite hard to perfect your methods, and again it comes back to getting good information about what we're doing.

There's also another reason: there are still many obstacles to international cooperation. I'm not going to go into many details about this. I would be quite happy to provide more information to the committee if it wishes, but given that the crime frequently occurs across borders, preventing it and controlling it and prosecuting it presupposes very good cooperation among law enforcement agencies and legal authorities in both countries, and that is still fraught with all kinds of difficulties. We have made great progress not only in Canada but internationally with the Convention Against Transnational Organized Crime, to which Canada is a party. This certainly resolves a lot of those issues, but we're still very much at the beginning of this era of international cooperation. International cooperation comes at a risk, as I think all of us have discovered recently, so international cooperation is an area where we need to focus a little bit more of our efforts in future.

And finally I would say one of the reasons why we don't always succeed is that we have not always examined the assumptions we're prepared to make about human trafficking, what it is, who is involved, who the victims are, what they look like, where they come from, and all those other things.

There is a lot of mythology around this, including mythology about what organized crime is. When we think about organized crime, we think about The Godfather or a whole bunch of other stereotypical images, but in practice, organized crime, particularly as it refers to this type of human trafficking and other forms of trafficking, is a very different kind of animal. It looks more like networking; it is very loose associations of different groups across borders. We have to revise our assumptions about what organized crime is like in order to be effective at fighting this kind of organized crime.

Collectively, I would say, we are getting a lot wiser about how to best respond to the problem. Sergeant Lowe earlier talked about the importance of protection. In the federal government a lot of reference has been made to the three p's: prevention, protection, prosecution. Sometimes that could be misleading and sometimes it can help us organize ourselves, but we should never lose sight of the ultimate, paramount importance of protecting victims, because prevention, prosecution, and everything else depends upon how well we protect victims.

We've learned, for instance, that protection of victims must be paramount and must be placed at the centre of the preoccupations of all those responding to the problem. We also know that law enforcement cannot act alone and must reach out to a broad network of victim assistance and other service providers in order to offer that protection to victims.

Many of those agencies are part of civil society. Some of them don't have a long history of working with law enforcement and some of them are distrustful of working with law enforcement; therefore, we are at the stage where a lot of law enforcement agencies need to develop different kinds of networks and relationships with service providers when it comes to this particular group of victims.

I'm happy to say that the RCMP has provided leadership in that respect in Canada. In my region, where I come from in British Columbia, clearly the RCMP has not worked alone. It has brought together all community groups and has made advances in developing cooperation protocols, inter-agency protocols, and so on. That has been useful, but more of it needs to happen. And it's not an RCMP problem; there are a whole lot of other people in Canada who need to be mobilized to do their part in responding to the problem.

I'd like to say a few words, briefly, about Bill C-49. It is very important, and I'm sure you will receive a proper briefing, if necessary, on what Bill C-49 did and how it criminalized human trafficking and introduced other offences. My only regret is that Bill C-49 was not adopted earlier. There is a difference between criminalizing the behaviour as part of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act and criminalizing the behaviour as part of the Criminal Code. One of the main differences, of course, is that once it becomes a Criminal Code offence, it entails all kinds of responsibility for municipal police forces and regular law enforcement agencies.

The problem with the previous way of criminalizing it, through the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, was that it put the emphasis on people crossing borders. Of course, that is oftentimes part of the crime, but it creates a reflex of looking for those victims and looking for those crimes at the border. We think it's a border issue and that we need to put more people at the border.

In fact, research everywhere shows us that's the least likely place to identify victims of human trafficking. When they go across borders, most of them are being conned into believing they're being smuggled and that they're going to a brighter future and all of that. In that sense, they almost look like accomplices. They will cooperate with the smugglers and the traffickers, because they don't know yet that they are victims of crime. So the worst place to try to get victims of crime, or to intercept them, is at the border.

Where will you find them? You'll find them in your community, you'll find them in massage parlours, you'll find them on farms—you'll find them in all of those places. Who gets to those places? It is the regular beat police officer, who will bump into those cases more or less by coincidence or by accident. So it's very important that all of the police forces be mobilized to work together and to work with agencies in their own communities to deal with all of this.

So Bill C-49 was a very welcome change and very important legislation. You will probably hear people who think it should have been different, gone further, all of those other things. My own view on this is that it is too early to tell. It's a very good piece of legislation. We should have a look at how it works and what kinds of results it produces, but probably you will hear other witnesses who have different views.

Another very significant thing has happened to address a situation that was very problematic in terms of protecting victims of human trafficking, particularly those coming from other countries. There was no proper mechanism for allowing victims to stay in Canada for a period of time, so the introduction by Citizenship and Immigration Canada of temporary residence permits is another major step in the right direction.

Now there are still issues about how to apply it and when it applies, and there are still ambivalences I think to be conquered in terms of the relationship between people who work with victims and illegal immigrants and others, and law enforcement. I'm sure they'll work it out. This is a sort of new measure, but it's a step in the right direction. The committee probably should ensure that this process is monitored carefully and that we learn about how it's implemented and whether it can be improved in the next several months or years.

I'm not going to say a lot, but you will hear a lot about the difficulty in identifying victims of crime. That is really a very difficult issue always for everyone involved. Victims of crime do not necessarily come forward. They do not necessarily know early in the stage in the process of trafficking that they are victims, so how would they know to report it? Once they know they are being victimized, there are all kinds of reasons why they cannot. They are intimidated. They are victims of violence. They are afraid. They don't trust police officers. Sometimes they come from other countries where police officers are not to be trusted. So there are all kinds of reasons why that happens, and this is why it is so important to focus on that aspect. We have to work together and give ourselves good mechanisms, good means, to encourage victims to come forward and let them know that it is safe for them to do so.

I'm going to conclude here, Madam Chair, by identifying seven areas generally that I think still deserve attention in Canada and where probably your work will lead you to make some recommendations.

One is victim support services. They are currently insufficient in Canada, particularly when it comes to victims of human trafficking, and not everyone understands yet that regular victim services are not always adequate for victims of human trafficking, or victims who come from other countries, or victims of organized crime in general. It's one thing to help someone who was robbed yesterday on the street. It's quite another thing to try to help someone who has been in the clutches of a major dangerous organized crime group.

I'm not saying we need a whole set of new victim services, but we need to assist existing services in developing a capacity to assist those victims. Again, we haven't had that many cases, at least official cases, so most of those agencies are still in a learning mode and most of them would probably be telling you that they don't have sufficient resources to do a good job at this and that they need to train their volunteers, they need to train their staff, and so on. So that's one area.

Another one is support for the role of organizations that work with victims in general.

Another one is that I am not certain that Bill C-49 is being implemented as systematically and as thoroughly as it should be. I'm referring mostly in particular to training of various officials. I'm talking about public information and legal education and so on. There might be more measures that I'm not aware of, but certainly from where I'm sitting, I haven't seen a systematic approach to implementing Bill C-49, and that is required.

I would also say that another major priority is developing local strategies, because that problem is really going to be countered by good cooperation and effective relationships between agencies at the local level. There are some examples of that. I mentioned the example of British Columbia. I know that in Ottawa, also, there are some initiatives, and there are several others. That needs to happen in every community around the country, and that probably needs support, which brings me, of course, to the next part. There is a lack of resources everywhere in terms of putting those measures into place, and they will require support. These things will not happen on their own.

When you're talking about support, assistance, and administration of justice, you're also talking about provincial responsibilities. Therefore, there needs to be good, tight coordination between the federal and provincial governments and a clear road map on how they're going to work together to address this problem.

I have two more points.

International cooperation will require constant attention and more investment on our part in order to succeed. You cannot think of it broadly and try to cooperate with 197 countries, so one will have to be strategic. We do know which countries are more problematic and which ones we need to work with more closely. Therefore, this also will require attention.

On data, I mentioned several times in my comments here that we don't have information. What we need is a strategy to collect information, not just police information, but including police information, so that we all get a better sense of what we're dealing with.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much to both of you.

I think it's very helpful as a base for us to begin our discussions.

We will start our first round of questioning, which is for seven minutes each, starting with the Liberals, Bloc, Conservatives, and the NDP, followed by five minutes after that.

Ms. Minna, go ahead, please.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you both for your presentations. They were very interesting.

Also, I was pleased and disappointed at the same time to hear that Bill C-49 is welcomed but that it may not be getting down to the ground where it needs to be. That is one of the major failings of a lot of our legislation. We can build as much legislation as we can, but at the end of the day, if it's not implemented properly, if it's not really used, then of course the resources aren't applied, and that's a major problem.

One of my first questions was on what your reaction to the legislation itself was and if any changes were needed, but you said it's too early to tell. I was also wondering what we are doing to make it a reality. Obviously, you've given us some good suggestions with respect to that.

You said there's still not enough data, and obviously we have a shortage of research. Is there any research going on at this point that you know of within the RCMP, for instance, or any other institution with respect to the data you know is needed but is not yet available? If not, who do you think should be, at this point, doing that kind of research? Where should the government direct its attention and resources, its funding, to make that happen?

11:45 a.m.

National Coordinator for Human Trafficking, Immigration and Passport Branch, Border Integrity, Federal and International Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Det Sgt Lori Lowe

The RCMP continually collects information and provides intelligence to members in the field. This is data collection at its finest. Reports are being worked on through our human trafficking national coordination centre's analyst. She's always putting something together, always getting information from the field, and disseminating it.

Regarding research we would like to do, our National Child Exploitation Coordination Centre would like to do a study on trafficking of children, because nothing has been done on that. That's something they're looking into. Also, our National Aboriginal Policing Service would like to do a study on aboriginal women being trapped for massive trafficking for sexual exploitation.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

I appreciate that you want to do the research. Part of the impediment at this point is the funding, or that resources are missing. I presume the research would involve partnerships with communities across the country and the RCMP would be hooking up with the agencies that Mr. Dandurand mentioned earlier in the various communities across Canada. I presume the research would involve that?

11:45 a.m.

Senior Associate, International Centre for Criminal Law Reform and Criminal Justice Policy, University of British Columbia

Yvon Dandurand

It would.

You may recall I also mentioned that part of the problem is that many of those cases do not come to the attention of the police. So even though the work done by the RCMP in collecting information and intelligence is crucial and must continue, there needs to be another component, which is collecting the information that comes to the attention of others—child protection agencies, immigration agencies, immigration lawyers, and all kinds of other people who have the information—but there's no systematic way to collect it.

Other countries have developed hybrid models. For instance, the Netherlands has a special rapporteur, who, at arm's-length, keeps information from both sides. Now, that's important because typically the police cannot share intelligence information freely and make it public, since that would destroy the value of the intelligence. On the other hand, a lot of people working in NGOs and service agencies feel they have to be very careful with the information they have because they don't want to put the victims at risk.

So you need to have a data collection mechanism that provides safety for victims and protects the integrity of the intelligence information collected by the police. I don't think we've made enough progress in Canada. We are wasting time trying to talk about method, and we should get on with it.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

That's interesting, because what you're saying is that while the RCMP and other law enforcement agencies are doing some research, it needs to be done by a separate body that would bring law enforcement into the mix, but also the communities and all of the other...in order to have proper research.

That goes back to the point you made. The previous government's bill, C-49, while it's good legislation, cannot be as effective without this other arm of knowing where things are at. So that's interesting, because everybody tends to look at the existing institutions as places to start, but it looks like we're looking at something that may be slightly different to do the research and collecting. Okay, that's good.

The other question I had was on the root causes. I know the research hasn't been done, but from what you know at this point, generally, what are the main motivators for trafficking—apart from greed and crime? Obviously I know what the motive of the people who are perpetrating this is, and to some degree I understand that it's economic for the women who come to do exotic dancing or they come to do a job but end up doing something else. Do you know of any way or of any research being done from the economic perspective—the prevention side—that could start chopping off the supply and address the issue of income support and prevention, in partnership with some countries that might be the major source of trafficking? The core issue is what I'm looking at.

11:45 a.m.

Senior Associate, International Centre for Criminal Law Reform and Criminal Justice Policy, University of British Columbia

Yvon Dandurand

You mentioned greed, and on the other side there are the dreams of people who want to improve: greed and dreams.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

Yes, they sound the same, but they're not quite the same thing, right?

11:50 a.m.

Senior Associate, International Centre for Criminal Law Reform and Criminal Justice Policy, University of British Columbia

Yvon Dandurand

Yes. There's the greed and the sad fact that some people are prepared to do anything for profit. On the other side, there are dreams. Desperate people who want to improve their situation in life are prepared to do anything. Unfortunately, they fall prey and victim to the first category.

Regarding general prevention, obviously anything we can do to assist people--particularly in developing countries where they are most vulnerable--to get access to legitimate opportunities to pursue their dreams in their own country is helpful. So helping development is a major thing.

There's another type of prevention that is a little more targeted, which can also be done with countries where we know we have a lot of trafficking. It's to work with them on explaining to people who have those dreams what the risks are, and to help them understand how they're going to be victimized—help them make sure they do not become the victims of traffickers. But that is very difficult, because if you go to Manila in the Philippines, let's say, you will see long lines of young women and men waiting at an employment agency. Some of those employment agencies are legitimate and some are not. Some will deliver those individuals into the hands of traffickers and others are legitimate agencies. For potential victims, there's no way of knowing.

Again, it's back to international cooperation and working with that country, making sure they regulate, that they do something about overseas employment agencies, and that you work together with them. I'm afraid there is no easy solution to preventing the exploitation of people who live in difficult circumstances in their own country.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much.

We'll move on to our next questioner. The seven minutes is to include questions and answers. I am trying to be flexible, to make sure we have time to get in as many answers as possible.

Ms. Mourani is next.

11:50 a.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

Madam Chair, I would like to thank you for your presence and for your words.

I appreciated your saying, Mr. Dandurand, that sometimes we waste time on definitions and procedures; this is true. I experience this myself in connection with street gangs. We waste time defining what a gang is and determining whether it involves organized crime. It is a big problem. Our being unable to agree on definitions makes it possible, in a way, for the phenomenon to grow without any evaluation or control from us.

According to the UN Office for Drug Control and Crime Prevention, 92% of human trafficking victims end up in prostitution. It is estimated that 48% of victims are children.

Do you think that legislation that decriminalized procuring and consequently bawdy houses would only help to liberate an underground, undervalued market? Do you think that would only make it easier for these criminal networks to operate? That is my first question.

My second question is as follows. When a nation—Canada or the Quebec nation—gives out temporary visas for so-called artists who are generally headed for the male entertainment industry, do you think we are opening the door to trafficking? Do you think that this program should be abolished? I feel that this is a sort of somewhat disguised legal trafficking.

11:50 a.m.

Senior Associate, International Centre for Criminal Law Reform and Criminal Justice Policy, University of British Columbia

Yvon Dandurand

With regard to your first question on procuring and its links to human trafficking, there are various opinions. Generally speaking, I think that the more some of these activities remain clandestine, the easier it is for organized crime to exploit people. I do not think for a moment that the suggestion is being made that procuring should be decriminalized where children are involved. However, where adults are concerned... One thing that helps criminal groups is the fact that prostitution remains clandestine and therefore the people who work in this area do not dare to ask for help because they do not know what kind of response they will get from the authorities, especially when they come from other countries, where there may be a lot of repression. This is a complex question and I cannot avoid it, but I think that the answer lies in part in measures that would make prostitution legal, particularly between consenting adults.

The figures from the UN Office for Drug Control and Crime Prevention that you quoted are right, but you probably noticed also that readers of these reports were advised to take into consideration the fact that the reason why this percentage is so high is that these are the types of cases that are being studied.

I said to you earlier in my presentation that our positions on human trafficking often dictate our actions. If we think that human trafficking is practised above all with a view to prostitution or sexual exploitation, we are going to focus our attention on those areas, we are going to assign investigations to the morality squads, and so on. The results will confirm our impression that the aim is mainly sexual exploitation.

If in another country you start paying attention to, say, the exploitation of farm workers, suddenly you will realize that 80% of workers are victims. We have to be careful with these percentages. Nevertheless it is quite clear, as you said, that sexual exploitation, particularly that of women and children, is one of the major dimensions of this problem. It is probably not the only one, but it is a major one.

All we know about organized crime operations is that they take advantage of the fact that we have reduced these activities to clandestine activities in our society. It is difficult for victims to ask for help.

11:55 a.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

If I understand what you are saying, the clandestine nature of activities helps to reinforce and promote the expansion of organized crime and, if we legalized procuring or bawdy houses, organized crime could no longer operate in this area. Is that right?

11:55 a.m.

Senior Associate, International Centre for Criminal Law Reform and Criminal Justice Policy, University of British Columbia

Yvon Dandurand

No, that is not what I was saying.

here there are also problems of human trafficking for purposes of sexual exploitation. The problem is posed there a bit differently. In Austria, there is regulated and legalized prostitution, along with clandestine prostitution. It is easier for victims to disentangle themselves from their difficulties when they know that being involved in prostitution will not necessarily be regarded as a criminal activity.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Ms. Mourani, you have ten seconds left.

11:55 a.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

With regard to visas, should we get ride of that infamous artist’s visa program for the male industry?

11:55 a.m.

Senior Associate, International Centre for Criminal Law Reform and Criminal Justice Policy, University of British Columbia

Yvon Dandurand

I thought that program was abolished. That program created a lot of problems. I am told there really is not any reason to keep such a program.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Not that I'm aware of.

Ms. Smith.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

I want to especially thank Sergeant Lowe and Mr. Dandurand for coming today.

I agree with Ms. Mourani that this kind of program needs to be shut down. Our side of the House is endeavouring to do exactly that.

We've talked a lot about international cooperation. Some of the insightful comments that you both brought forward have been extremely useful. I would like to ask Sergeant Lowe a specific question. A lady coming to our committee has been working in a modelling agency for a long time. There are numerous stories. These are Caucasian Canadian women who have been trafficked to other countries. It's done in a unique way and she will describe it. Modelling agencies have big events in which the girls pay $500 to show everybody how beautiful they are. They think they're being launched on an exciting career, and then it becomes something else.

You said something about needing resource materials, like the video that the RCMP have out right now. I've seen this video, and I commend the RCMP for putting it together. It's so helpful and so tastefully done. The resources for getting other videos out to community centres and other such places need to be made available quickly.

With respect to these girls in modelling agencies, could you comment on the structure that is used, where these innocent girls suddenly find themselves in other countries, their documents are taken away, and they are forced to do things just to survive? We have one such girl that I'm hoping will come to committee to share her experience with us. Time will tell whether she'll be brave enough to do this during the committee hearings we have before Christmas.

Can you tell me what would be most useful for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in terms of their programming and the objectives discussed this morning? You've talked about expanding your way of doing things to non-governmental organizations and community centres.

We've recently put 1,000 new RCMP officers on Canadians streets. But we have a big problem here. As you've both so eloquently put it, people are only now becoming aware of what's going on. It's been a little secret society. Had I not been the mother of a police officer, had I not been the justice critic for Manitoba at one time, I would never have known about it.

I think it behooves all of us to join in this tremendous fight. I would ask the two of you, beginning with Sergeant Lowe, to give us some insight into this matter.

Noon

National Coordinator for Human Trafficking, Immigration and Passport Branch, Border Integrity, Federal and International Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Det Sgt Lori Lowe

You're asking what we would like in order to do more.

What we've been able to do so far, we've done with existing financial and physical resources. We've been able to do quite a bit, but there's so much more we can do.

In British Columbia, there are two police officers who are going around the whole province giving presentations. They're having to turn people down, saying they're sorry, but they're so booked right now that they need extra people to get this done. They're showing the video and they're handing out the posters and the contact cards we've distributed. They're handing out their own cards. People say we need more people. You're hearing it from the public. You're hearing it from the other law enforcement agencies.

They're speaking, specifically now, with law enforcement--with RCMP detachments across the province and with other municipal police forces.

They address NGOs, also, in large groups. What the officers tell the NGOs is to get a large group and they will be happy to present to them. They can combine a whole bunch together. That's what they've been able to do, and it's been very successful there.

We need resources to provide awareness all over the country. We have six immigration and passport sections across Canada. There are not even six officers who we've been able to dedicate to this. In British Columbia we have one dedicated to it. The other one is helping out at this time.

We need resources in each of the I and P sections to do this awareness training. We need officers to go out and investigate, to go out and actively seek victims, and once they find them, to provide protection for them.

We need people to do research, especially in the northern communities and the prairies. We need to go to the reserves to talk to the aboriginals there, to talk to the NGOs there, and to talk to law enforcement agencies there. We don't have the resources to do that now, and we desperately need them.

Those are our biggest needs right now.

12:05 p.m.

Senior Associate, International Centre for Criminal Law Reform and Criminal Justice Policy, University of British Columbia

Yvon Dandurand

I would just add to this that the RCMP, as I said, has provided very strong and effective leadership in the police community in Canada. They had a head start because they were responsible for part of the enforcement of the offence under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act. The other police forces are just coming online, because before this, it wasn't their responsibility. With Bill C-49, they all have to do something. Many of them, I would say, are probably still asleep. They still probably don't know exactly what it means for them.

Sergeant Lowe mentioned British Columbia. The RCMP, itself, has gone to the municipal police forces and provided information and so on. I believe that the RCMP, and the national centre in particular, is crucial, but I would like you to also remember that there are a lot of other law enforcement agencies and other groups that need to be brought on board. It's not just a problem for the national police force. Others need to be mobilized.