Status of Women Committee on Oct. 17th, 2006

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much. I expect you'll find that we have a lot.

I'd like to suggest to the committee that if we were to do five minutes each, it would give almost everybody an opportunity to ask questions. So if that's agreed by the committee, we'll not go to our usual seven minutes.

So it will be five minutes, starting with Ms. Neville.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Morency, in clarification, the new act on human trafficking comes into effect when? Is it November of this year?

[Carole Morency]

It came into effect in November 2005.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Can you tell me, if you've been following the implementation of the act, what difference it has made?

[Carole Morency]

The new offences came into force on November 25, so they can only be used to address situations that have occurred after that point in time. We are not aware of any charges that have yet been laid under the new offences, but that doesn't mean that law enforcement is not currently investigating cases that have come to their attention or that other cases are not proceeding under existing Criminal Code provisions that may address trafficking-related conduct.

So, yes, we continue to monitor how Bill C-49 in particular will advance our efforts in this regard; and yes, we continue to monitor how existing Criminal Code offences and also the trafficking offence under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act continue to be used in this area.

Tracking cases, for example, between spring 2004 and February 2006, looking at the existing Criminal Code offences that are being used to address trafficking-related conduct...when we've looked at the facts in reported cases we have found or identified 25 cases where convictions have been entered and nine that are still before the courts, meaning the fact situation is a trafficking situation but not necessarily identified because of the trafficking in persons specific offence.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you for that.

Can you tell me or the committee a little about the prevalence of trafficking of Canadian-born women and children? How widespread is it, what are the manifestations of it, and where is it?

[Carole Morency]

It's a difficult issue, for us in Canada and internationally, for any country to identify the dynamics and the actual numbers, whether it's totally within the borders of a country or across the border. In the context of domestic trafficking, what we have to this point in time remains primarily anecdotal types of information that we've gleaned from discussions with NGO partners or provincial partners who are active on the ground at a regional, local level.

As well, from the reported case law that we've seen under the existing Criminal Code cases, they tend to be, for example, younger persons who are more vulnerable. They're usually young teenage girls, often below the age of eighteen, who just choose to move to another place or run away from home, or they've hooked up with somebody who has basically taken them under control, either under the guise of a friendly situation or has actually taken them in under a trafficking situation and moved them perhaps from one urban area to another or from a rural area to an urban area.

So we don't have numbers on how it is actually occurring. We understand that those who would be at greatest risk, based on what we've seen in the reported case law, are the younger teenagers, who tend to be more vulnerable to being exploited. They don't have the means. They're running away from violence at home or other forms of violence.

Of course, within the aboriginal community, there would be a greater risk. That is our understanding to this point, that there may be greater exposure there.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Actually, you anticipated where I was going with that. I appreciate the distinction you made between prostitution and trafficking. I know anecdotally some of what is happening in my own community--and it's really only anecdotally--but I'm concerned about that transition that takes place from prostitution to trafficking internally in the country. But you're telling me that you have no way of tracking it.

[Carole Morency]

To be clear, for anyone under the age of eighteen, there's no question of consent, that a young person is choosing to prostitute themselves. That's not on the table.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

That's right.

[Carole Morency]

When you're dealing with an adult, an adult can choose or can consent, but the difference between prostitution and trafficking is that it's not a question of consent; it's irrelevant. The person is being forced to provide their services, whether it's sexual or other labour, for an exploitative purpose, and they fear for their own safety or that of someone in their family if they don't provide those services. That's the distinction from prostitution. Prostitution is not illegal in Canada currently; it's the activities around prostitution that tend to be addressed through the Criminal Code. But there is that distinction.

I would emphasize the distinction in particular in dealing with children under the age of eighteen--which is what we've seen in the reported criminal cases, that they tend to be more under the age of eighteen--that it's never a question of consent.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Mourani.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Welcome, ladies, and thank you for being here today.

I would like to pursue the same line of questioning as my colleague. According to the UNODC, 92% of victims of human trafficking are used for prostitution, and 48% of them are children.

Bill C-49, which includes a number of variables that I intend to list, criminalizes trafficking in persons. You said earlier that you make a distinction between human trafficking and prostitution.

Do you not think that drawing a distinction between human trafficking and prostitution ultimately makes no sense, in a way? Ninety-two per cent of the victims of human trafficking are used for prostitution. If Canada were to legalize procuring, would that distinction not conflict with Bill C-49? Also, would it not help to open up a market where organized crime already plays a prominent role? Would this not allow organized crime to operate even more freely, since Canada would harbour individuals engaged in procuring? Prostitution has not yet been criminalized, but procuring has. The average age of people getting into prostitution is 14. Do you believe that consent could ever be given under these conditions?

I read that 92% of women who engage in prostitution want to get out of it. Do you not think this sends a strange message, both nationally and internationally? Experts in the field have often said that a distinction has to be made between human trafficking and prostitution. I think this sends a strange message.

[Carole Morency]

Thank you for your questions.

First of all, this is a matter that is currently before the committee examining solicitation, whose report we are awaiting.

I recognize that there is a connection between prostitution and human trafficking. We do not support prostitution, but it is important to distinguish between the two. With human trafficking, consent is never the issue. The same does not apply to prostitution. It happens that some adults engage in prostitution by choice, but children can never make such a choice.

I heard the testimony of Mr. Dandurand before this Committee. He said that even in countries where prostitution is not illegal, human trafficking is still a problem. We need a number of responses, because prostitution is a complex and difficult problem. We are awaiting the report.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

As you said, nothing is either all black or all white. Some women may make a choice. But can you really choose when you're living in poverty? Do you really have a choice when you're a victim of violence and you're practically forced into prostitution? Of course, there are some women who just want to make a little extra money, and that is what they do.

Ultimately, is prostitution not a social or moral issue? Society may not be interested in seeing a woman exposed in a shop window like a piece of meat, because she is not an object. Do you not think it's more of a social issue?

[Carole Morency]

Vulnerable people do not have social and legal equality, and are therefore even more likely to be abused.

It is clear to us that the victims of trafficking are even more vulnerable. That is where we are trying to make improvements. As prostitution per se, it is currently before another committee. Human trafficking is a legal matter relating to the security of the person, and has to do with social and health services. It is a very complex problem.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Smith.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you for coming today. We're really glad you're here.

I'm very pleased that trafficking in persons is a topic we're studying at the Status of Women committee. In my opinion, it's long overdue.

The significant thing about trafficking in persons is the lack of knowledge that the public, the police, and everybody in general has about it. What is happening now is a new awareness. In 2004, the Ukrainian Congress women put down a resolution at the UN saying stop the trafficking of persons.

Last week, at a homeless centre in Toronto, I was talking to a young woman. The police did not believe her when she told them she was trafficked. The pimp said she is doing this of her own volition. She had just turned eighteen.

All of these challenges are there before us as a society.

Having said this, the other element is that people who are trafficked internationally usually do not know the English or French language. They usually are threatened, and they usually don't trust police, depending on the country they come from.

You're working together with many other organizations. What do you think the most important thing is that we need to get out there? Is it a combination, maybe? It might be education or it might be more police resources. In your opinion, what do you think is very important on the street today to stop this horrific crime?

A third question is related to data gathering. Traditionally, over the past decade, money has not been put into the gathering of data on this horrific issue, although we know on the ground from NGOs, police officers, and everybody else that it's happening in more cases than we care to admit.

Could you comment on these three things?

[Adèle Dion]

Thank you for that question.

In terms of work at the international level, certainly one of the most important elements is, on the one hand, awareness raising, getting the message to particularly the most vulnerable, the young children and girls, about what to watch out for, what to be suspicious of, and, on the other hand, what their rights are, and who is available to protect and assist them.

That is why, for example, at the international level we do work quite closely with the International Organization for Migration. They have a very good track record in working with the grassroots organizations, the NGOs, in countries such as Ukraine, as I mentioned earlier, to assist civil society in helping these vulnerable victims and in awareness-raising activities. So certainly at the international level that is something we very much prioritize, including here in our own hemisphere, in the Americas.

In terms of data gathering, I'll ask my colleague to speak about the Canadian situation, but at the international level this is a very important challenge. We here in Canada have our own problems, but those problems are certainly found in every single country. It's not restricted to one. Our G-8 partners face the same difficulties and challenges we do just because of the nature of the problem--the very delicate line, as was just mentioned, between prostitution and trafficking, and how the problem is identified and addressed.

[Carole Morency]

Within the context of a domestic response, just to echo what Adèle said, prevention is a huge issue for us. We have focused a lot of our preliminary efforts federally on getting that message out locally. Absolutely there's more we need to do, and will continue to do, in partnership with our partners on the ground. We do continue to work on that.

As was mentioned earlier, the three Ps--protection of victims, prevention, and prosecution of offenders--is really the international standard. Those three remain the key priorities for us domestically as well. The protection of victims, then, with the announcement by the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration in May of 2006 about the guidelines, was a huge step forward for us.

Again, clearly there's much more we need to do. Within the criminal justice sector we continue to work through various federal, provincial, and territorial fora to keep the issue on the table, including with heads of prosecution and directors of victims services. There's much we can do federally to keep the issue on the agenda, but there's also much we need to do very much in partnership with provinces and NGOs to make further inroads.

On data collection, what Adèle said about issues internationally is true for us here. The clandestine nature of the conduct in question makes it incredibly difficult for anyone to get real data on this. If we look to other areas where we have experience here in Canada--i.e., sexual assaults and spousal abuse--we have some statistics there, but everybody who's worked in that area will say that we all estimate those to be incredibly below the real numbers.

Bill C-49, the IRPA offence, and those types of specific offences addressing human trafficking will help us a bit in terms of trying to track those specific offences. We will continue to need to look at related types of conduct; a case that may not be identified by somebody as a trafficking case clearly is, once you look at the facts.

In terms of our law enforcement, you've heard from the RCMP already. I think the CBSA will be appearing as well, and they can speak to efforts they can and are taking domestically to enhance their ability to keep data on these numbers.

So there's a lot more we need to do, but there are huge hurdles in terms of trying to get to the real numbers that we would all like to have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Mathyssen, go ahead, please.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you very much. You have made reference to the need for data and more information, and I wonder whether the interdepartmental working group has enough resources available to look at that.

We also heard at the committee meeting last time that working with community groups and civil society is very important in order to combat human trafficking. I wondered to what degree that work has happened. Has there been consultation with these groups, and if so, what are you hearing and with whom have you had these discussions?

[Adèle Dion]

To answer the first part of your question, about resources, our approach has been to try to coordinate the resources that exist within each of the seventeen departments and agencies to make sure they're used as effectively as possible, and, very importantly, to make sure we all know what each other's priorities are, and which specific challenges are being targeted so we can get maximum value from the resources we have. It's a challenge. It's one that is more than likely not going to diminish over time. It's very much related to the lack of specific hard data. You have a kind of chicken and egg situation, in which it's really difficult without the data to actually know whether you're dedicating sufficient resources to each element of the problem.

In this exercise, there are many challenges. We find that civil society is absolutely essential to addressing the problem. They have contact with the victims themselves. They are very much engaged in working with several agencies and departments to provide the solutions, to identify the victims, to assist them, and to provide protection. Also, they're key partners in providing that anecdotal evidence that is so very necessary.

[Carole Morency]

I would just like to add that in terms of specific groups, federally we've had the opportunity to participate at a local level through round tables, sometimes in partnership, for example, with the British Columbia government, which is quite active in addressing the issue. We've had an occasion to meet with umbrella organizations, in particular the Anti-Trafficking Coalition of Vancouver. There was a meeting between the Minister of Justice in August 2005 and that coalition group. The Canadian Council for Refugees has done a lot of work in this area, and we've had fairly positive discussions with them, and we have been able to learn from what they've already discovered or identified as key issues. I think we're all moving on a similar path.

The issue of resources remains an important one, but as Adèle has said, we've been able, with existing resources, to pull together within the different departments some critical first steps towards that goal.