Evidence of meeting #18 for Status of Women in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was prostitution.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Danielle Strickland  Captain, Salvation Army
Mirjana Pobric  Project Coordinator, National Organization of Immigrant and Visible Minority Women of Canada
Shandip Saha  Researcher, National Organization of Immigrant and Visible Minority Women of Canada
Wendy Grant-John  Ministerial Representative , Women's Issues and Gender Equality Directorate, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Christine Aubin  Legal Counsel, Legal Services, Department of Justice

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Order.

This is meeting number 18 for the Standing Committee on the Status of Women. Welcome to our committee members, and to our witnesses this morning.

I'd ask the committee to ensure that you have on your desks the following documents: the government response to report number seven that was sent by e-mail to your offices last week; briefing documents from the Library of Parliament on report number seven; a brief submitted by the National Organization of Immigrant and Visible Minority Women of Canada, who are going to speak to us now; and you should have the committee calendar updated with confirmed witnesses in bold. We will have Minister Prentice come in to speak to us at noon.

I am now going to introduce our witnesses for this morning. From the Salvation Army, we have Danielle Strickland.

Welcome, Danielle. We're very happy that you're able to join us today, especially on such short notice for all of you. We really appreciate that.

From the National Organization of Immigrant and Visible Minority Women of Canada, we have Mirjana Pobric and Dr. Shandip Saha, researchers. Thank you very much for coming this morning.

Whoever would like to can take the lead.

Ms. Strickland, would you like to start off with your presentation?

11:10 a.m.

Capt Danielle Strickland Captain, Salvation Army

Sure.

Honourable members, this committee is in a strategic position to create a Canadian response to the evil of sexual trafficking. I believe you can bolster the fight for human rights on the globe and ensure the beauty, freedom, and value of all within its sphere of influence. And I want to assure you that we're praying for you.

All of the international leaders of the Salvation Army met in 2004 and identified the abolition of human trafficking for the purpose of sexual exploitation as an international priority for the Salvation Army and the world. With that international commitment, we've set our sights on Canadian soil and how we can fight this thing in our own country. And our paths meet here.

We've set out to combat sexual trafficking on the ground. Several obstacles and persistent questions have emerged that I'd like to discuss with you, and I want to suggest some potential answers for this committee.

On a special note, I've noticed that everyone I've met who seems to work at a grassroots level and in policy on ending sexual trafficking—in the RCMP, victims services, and grassroots NGOs on the ground—suffer from an assault of paralysis when it comes to this issue. It seems so complex, hidden, and secret—really just evil—and this great paralysis tends to happens. I wanted to assure you that the time for paralysis is over. We don't have that option anymore. This is a prevalent issue in the world, and it's an evil that I believe Canada is in a position to stop. So I want to tell you that I believe we can progress on this thing, we can attack it, and we can actually take some ground. I don't believe it's hopeless.

So I want to suggest that the struggle itself is worth having, and I also want to come to you with a strong conviction. I often work in desperate places, and I have this strong conviction, as does the Salvation Army, that light is more powerful than darkness and that God is on our side. So be encouraged; we've employed heaven. I've gone straight to the top on this one and asked the Lord for His strength. You are not alone in this.

For the specifics, there will be a formal written paper, but my comments will be a bit more informal. It tends to be what I do.

But without oversimplifying, I think this monster has two heads. I want to suggest that we can attack both of those heads separately with a one-two punch.

So the first head of the monster of sexual trafficking in Canada is the actual victims, the actual survivors of human trafficking, and the provision for those survivors, both internationally and domestically. Trafficked victims are currently, in our country, being sexually exploited every day. We know this for a fact; this is happening right now.

Because of their intrinsic value, we must provide a place where survivors of sexual trafficking have access to their basic human rights. The UN Palermo Protocol, which Canada signed, has already made it clear what that looks like. In article 6, it recommends “implementing measures to provide for the physical, psychological and social recovery of victims of trafficking in persons”, including appropriate housing; counselling and information; legal rights; language translation; medical, psychological, and material assistance; and employment, educational, and training opportunities.

In Canada, we are not fulfilling this protocol. But there are several ways we can honour the protocol and provide these basic human rights with expertise and expedience. This isn't hard.

Punch number one on this head is to create immediate federal funding for safe and supportive structures for sexually trafficked survivors. We can't do this too soon. There are many traffic victims who do not have the safety or security that they require in Canada, and this has multiple effects. I won't go into all of them, but one effect is it can re-victimize the trafficked person. Another effect is that it gives power to the traffickers, because they offer provision that we don't. So the traffickers actually have power, and we give it to them by not providing reasonable things.

On the ground in Vancouver where I work, through partnerships and grassroots initiatives, including—and catch this, it's exciting—faith-based communities and feminist movements working together on this issue. This is how important it is—our coming together on this common issue to offer provision for the survivors of human trafficking in Canada.

We lack the funding to secure even the basic level of response right now. We have the will, we have the expertise, but we don't have the funding to do it. These victims deserve more than this.

Because of the nature of sexual trafficking and the desperate effects on its victims, it's critical to respond with specialized and culturally appropriate care. Right now, if a human traffic victim who's been sexually exploited surfaces, which has happened many times, the only option that exists for them to is to find shelter in existing shelter situations.

The problem with this, particularly in my city, Vancouver--and I can't speak to all the rest of Canada on the grassroots--is that there's no room. There's just no room in the shelters. There's a lack of funding, so that I can't even hold a bed in a shelter because that negates the funding for that shelter. So there's no place for the victim to go. I've been housing victims in people's homes, literally, because there's no place for them to go. The shelters that do have room aren't appropriate for victims of sexual trafficking. They're simply not appropriate.

So this kind of thing makes it even more difficult to get to the hidden places of trafficking. What happens is that these sexually trafficked victims, particularly, are so traumatized and they've been controlled by fear and violence for so long that they don't have any trust issues, and by nature they are suspicious of any kind of authority, or any kind of structure, or of even any kind of governmental support. If we provide adequate care and provision for those traffic victims, I believe we can free some of them enough that they would begin to share some of the secrets of the trade, which would benefit us in combating sexual trafficking more than we could ever imagine.

So provision is the left punch, if you would.

The right punch of this monster, and of this head, is to create a new piece of federal legislation that is specifically designed to give victims of sexual trafficking visa classification in our country. In March of this year the CIC announced that trafficked persons are eligible for a temporary resident permit. While we're glad they're making an effort, on the ground we've found the TRP inadequate.

First, while it would regularize a person's status in the country, it gives them access to nothing beyond interim federal help. So they're given status in Canada, but no means to survive. They're not eligible for work unless they're granted the longer permit option of six months, which has never happened. Second, the minimum of 120 days under the visa is too short a time for a survivor to recover and plan the next steps of her life.

Third, the women are still being criminalized in the very classification of this permit. It's designed for those in violation of IRPA and it serves to criminalize them as violators rather than as victims. Victims of human trafficking are victims, not criminals, and we need to recognize that legally. In order to make this happen, we'll need a new piece of legislation that creates a specialized visa for trafficked persons.

Additionally, on the ground level--this is just an aside--it's virtually impossible to find anyone who knows the TRP guidelines or how to go about applying for this permit. Literally, basic questions like how I apply, what's covered, and who do I contact cannot be answered. And anyone I have found with the expertise, which is one person in all of Vancouver so far, recommends not using the TRP because of its inherent lack of provision. Clearly, I think we could do better, and we must.

The Salvation Army is committed to partnering with you to ensure the proper safe and supportive care needed for the survivors of human trafficking. That's one head of the monster, this victim approach, the survivors and provision for survivors. It's a two-handed punch, right? The left hand is provision for their basic needs, as the protocol suggested, through release of funding federally; and the right hand punch is legal status and a new piece of federal legislation.

The other head of the ugly monster is the area of demand. What I mean by demand is the men who buy and profit from the sexual exploitation of women and children. There are two essential left-right punches we can do for this head.

The first is to recognize that prostitution is a form of sexual slavery that allows trafficking to flourish and to grow. This is essential.

The latest UN special report of the Special Rapporteur, Sigma Huda, on the human rights aspect of the victims of trafficking in persons makes it very clear that legalizing prostitution is intimately connected with likely increases in human trafficking. I quote:

...we should consider the link between trafficking and prostitution and recognize that prostitution is in itself a form of trafficking as defined in the Palermo Protocol since it is a form of sexual exploitation. Even if no visible external force is used, the consent of the victim as stated in Article 3 b of the Protocol is irrelevant. It cannot be said that prostitution is a voluntary process with no compelling or propelling factors such as the question of survival or of no other options being available to women that recruiters, traffickers and pimps take advantage of.

I've lived and worked on the streets of Vancouver's downtown east side for several years. Along with other organizations, we befriend women and children and youth who've found themselves victimized and sexually assaulted and who find themselves selling their bodies on the streets. I can tell you that story after story, woman after woman, they have all come to desperate and horrible places in their lives. They've been coerced, tricked, persuaded, beaten, and threatened to keep doing what they do. They live a degrading and horrific reality every single day. Let's stop using terms that normalize prostitution and that cast prostitution as just a form of work. Do you want sex work to be something young females should aspire to? Do you want your own daughters to contemplate sex work as a career choice?

As a committee, please do not make the mistake of separating prostitution from the equality of women. The condition for women who find themselves in sex slavery on our streets will not improve by moving them inside to turn their tricks or by setting up cubicles outside to do their business. They deserve more than a change in terminology and a quick external fix. We have to restore the dignity they were created with, by calling prostitution what it is: a sex crime against women. They have value. I tell them that daily, but I wonder if my country will agree.

The UN report frames this position in a context of human rights. I quote:

It has been wrongly assumed in some quarters that a human rights approach to trafficking is somehow inconsistent with the use of the criminal law to punish prostitute-users. This conclusion can only be based upon the assumed premise that men have a human right to engage in the use of prostituted persons. This premise should be rejected. Men do not have a human right to engage in the use of prostituted persons. In some domestic legal systems, men have been granted a legal right to engage in the use of prostituted persons, but, as suggested above, this right...[is] in direct conflict with the human rights of persons in prostitution, the vast majority of whom have been subjected to the illicit means...and are, therefore, victims of trafficking.

To combat demand, it is imperative that we make it culturally unacceptable to buy women for sex. Men who buy women for sex need to be arrested and specific programs for male sexual offenders be increased.

In the Salvation Army one such program exists already and has for ten years. Prostitution offender programs are commonly known as john schools across the country. We consider them a success in educating and therefore reducing the demand for purchased sex from those who participate in the program. It's here again that prostitution and sex trafficking cross paths, as we find that those who purchase sex are buying women from domestically trafficked places as well as internationally. The message must continue to get out that buying sex for money, food, or shelter is exploitation and is therefore not acceptable on any kind of level.

Men who have sex with a child in prostitution are committing child sexual abuse and need to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. If we are serious about the rights of women and children who are sexually exploited in our country, we need to raise the age of consent from 14 to 16, at a bare minimum—if we're serious about rights for people in Canada.

That's the first punch. It was a big one; it might have been the right.

The second punch at this monster is to criminalize prostitute users and decriminalize victims of sexual assault. Make no mistake, this action is about the equality of women. The UN recommends that while prostitute users be criminalized, prostitutes not be; that they be treated as victims, not as criminals. Sweden has adopted this model because of their commitment to the value of women and children in their society, and their success on this issue is something that Canada, as a progressive nation ourselves, could easily adapt.

I quote from Gunilla Ekberg, a Canadian who helped form the Swedish policy:

As with all laws, the Law has a normative function. It is a concrete and tangible expression of the belief that in Sweden women and children are not for sale. It effectively dispels men’s self-assumed right to buy women and children for prostitution....

Consider this statement by a former prostitute, now an advocate for women's rights:

We, the survivors of prostitution and trafficking gathered at this press conference today, declare that prostitution is violence against women.

Women in prostitution do not wake up one day and “choose” to be prostitutes. It is chosen for us by poverty, past sexual abuse, the pimps who take advantage of our vulnerabilities, and the men who buy us for the sex of prostitution.

The Salvation Army is deeply committed to the intrinsic worth of women and is committed to the abolition of sexual slavery.

I'll end with one final quote. At one time, Martin Luther King, Jr., ignited a nation with this quote:

Cowardice asks the question, “Is it safe?” Expediency asks the question, “Is it politic?” Vanity asks the question, “Is it popular?” But, conscience asks the question, “Is it right?” And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular, but one must take it because one's conscience tells one that it is right.

I believe that time has come for Canada. We can choose to do what is right for the survivors of sexual trafficking by providing safe, supportive, and legal refuge for them in Canada. Let's do what's right for Canada by choosing to call prostitution what it is: sexual violence against women. Let's stand up as a nation to say we won't tolerate the sexual exploitation of women and children in our country any longer. God grant it that in Canada women and children are not for sale.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much, Ms. Strickland.

I appreciate that, and I must tell you that I am the founder of the john school program. I did that in partnership with the Salvation Army, and we continue to go forward with it. It's a great program.

Ms. Mirjana Pobric and Dr. Shandip Saha, I will now turn it over to you. If you can, please keep your presentations down to about ten minutes. The committee has many questions, and we need sufficient time to get those questions asked.

Thank you.

11:25 a.m.

Mirjana Pobric Project Coordinator, National Organization of Immigrant and Visible Minority Women of Canada

Good morning, and thank you for having us here.

My name is Mirjana Pobric, and I'm project coordinator for the National Organization of Immigrant and Visible Minority Women of Canada.

My organization takes a broader view of human trafficking, given the experience and issues that our population of immigrant and visible minority women in Canada face, and the issues that we came up with in the twenty years of the existence of this organization. As you know, we are an equality-seeking organization of and for immigrant and visible minority women within officially bilingual and multicultural Canada. We have functioning networks in all immigrant-receiving provinces, and have been working on problems facing immigrant women for over two decades.

We have a broader view of human trafficking. Our particular focus is on fraudulent arranged marriages as a form of human trafficking. They very often finish with violence for women who have been sponsored and brought to Canada as sponsored spouses.

Our definition of human trafficking, as I said, is broader. We define it as any action that involves the process of using physical force, fraud, deception, or other forms of coercion or intimidation to obtain, recruit, harbour, and transport people for the purpose of profit. That's why we maintain that fraudulent marriages are a form of human trafficking.

My colleague, researcher Dr. Shandip Saha, will give more details on this point.

11:25 a.m.

Dr. Shandip Saha Researcher, National Organization of Immigrant and Visible Minority Women of Canada

In Canada, the issue of fraudulent marriages frequently comes up in the South Asian community. Arranged marriages are often the norm within Hindu, Sikh, and Muslim communities back in India. The practice of arranged marriages, one needs to stress, is not the same thing as a forced marriage, even though there is always a danger that women may be coerced into an arranged marriage.

The logic upon which arranged marriages rest is that the close matching of a couple’s linguistic, educational, and religious background will make for a much more enduring marriage. Marriages in South Asia are considered to be a union not only between two individuals, but between two families as well. The choice of a proper bride and groom is of great importance for families, because it reflects directly upon their social standing in their larger community.

Marriages in India are usually required to be registered, but this practice is not always followed, particularly in small cities and in rural areas. Consequently, when there is no registration, there is no valid proof that the marriage took place, outside the oral testimony of witnesses to the marriage, who can be easily bribed or threatened. Other forms of proof of marriage include photographs or video records, which can be damaged, doctored, lost, or even erased.

Arranged marriages in South Asia usually involve some sort of monetary transaction between the two families. For example, in a Muslim marital context, an essential feature is the wedding dower, which is a predetermined amount of money given by the husband to his wife. In Hindu marriages, the financial transaction that occurs between both of the families is usually known as a dowry, which is defined according to Indian law as any property or valuable security that the bride has given or agreed to give, directly or indirectly, to the groom’s family. The payment of a dowry is illegal under Indian law. It's punishable by fines and imprisonment. But grooms and their families often pressure the brides on the eve of the marriage to pay dowries that can go as high as $20,000 to $30,000 Canadian. Brides and their families frequently agree to these amounts, even at the risk of going into debt, because they do not want to face the social stigma associated with a cancelled marriage.

Fraudulent arranged marriages are now becoming increasingly common within the South Asian community in Canada. We maintain at NOIVMWC that these marriages should be considered as an act of human trafficking.

There are two reasons for this. First, members of both sexes, men and women, enter into marriages purely for securing Canadian immigration status in order to attain the benefits associated with being a landed immigrant and eventually a Canadian citizen. Marriages are arranged between a Canadian and an Indian citizen based on the assumption that marriage to a Canadian citizen will result in a higher standard of living and that relatives living in India will be able to come to Canada at a future date. NOIVMWC is convinced that this can lead to many instances of men and women marrying expressly for the purpose of entering Canada.

The second reason that NOIVMWC considers fraudulent marriages to be acts of trafficking is that many these marriages are arranged for and by men who are either Canadian citizens or landed immigrants, who travel to India expressly for the purpose of getting married, and who may on the eve of the marriage demand exorbitant dowries from their brides and their families. Once the marriage is performed and consummated, the man usually returns to Canada, stating that he will sponsor his spouse’s entry into Canada as soon as possible, only to sever all contact with his wife upon arrival in Canada. Sometimes he will serve them with divorce papers. Sometimes he will disappear from sight. Since no formal registration of the marriage is required back in India, there's never any formal proof that a marriage has taken place, or that a dowry was given or obtained. Therefore it is impossible to prove that an act of extortion took place.

Even it were established before the Indian courts that the individual in question did engage in such an act of dowry extortion, that individual is able to evade justice in Canada because, as a Canadian citizen, that person has not committed an extraditable offence. What is common to both of these instances of fraudulent marriage is that Canadian laws are being manipulated to secure financial gain and that Canada is also being used as a safe haven for people who have broken Indian law.

It is difficult to determine the frequency with which fraudulent marriages occur within the South Asian community. Although the information that that NOIVMWC has is anecdotal, the frequency with which fraudulent marriages are occurring is enough cause for alarm. NOIVMWC can and would address this issue positively by conducting research on the many dimensions of this problem, by engaging in consultation with the various South Asian communities in, for example, Toronto or Vancouver. NOIVMWC, on the basis of this, would be able to provide training modules for immigration officers, settlement workers, and counsellors and provide appropriate policy advice to relevant government departments. The recent budget cuts, however, to Status of Women Canada and Social Development Canada have hampered NOIVMWC's ability to address this issue in a substantive way.

We realize this is a difficult issue, and that is why we also believe there must be a collaborative, proactive effort between CIC, Justice Canada, Foreign Affairs, Status of Women and Multiculturalism to resolve both these issues of fraudulent marriages.

NOIVMWC feels that the Government of Canada can and should take a number of immediate medium-term and long-term steps to prevent these types of marriages. These have been outlined in our brief. Among these are the following: requiring a certificate of registration for the marriage to be included as part of the sponsorship documents; ensuring that immigrant-serving agencies and prominent leaders in faith communities be aware of this requirement; being able to develop visitors' visas for women who may want to pursue their absconding husbands who are back in Canada; developing an extradition treaty with India to return men accused of abandoning their wives after collecting dowries; and developing better coordination between CIC, Justice, and bar associations.

This whole issue of fraudulent marriage, I think, does not necessarily reflect well on Canada for two reasons: number one, because we are becoming a safe haven for a number of individuals who are breaking Indian law; and two, because, we believe, it tarnishes Canada's image internationally as a defender of human rights, generally speaking, and of women's rights in particular.

NOIVMWC believes that the Standing Committee on the Status of Women is in a unique position to speak to government about these egregious practices and in so doing, we hope, restore the confidence of South Asian women and their families in it as a defender of their rights here in Canada and in the subcontinent.

Thank you.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you both very much. You certainly raise some extremely important issues that many of us on the committee are equally concerned about.

We'll start on our speakers list. We've time for only five minutes rather than seven, to try to make sure everybody gets representation here.

We'll start with Ms. Minna.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

What I will do, if I can have the indulgence of the witnesses, is ask some questions and then get quick answers so I can ask you more questions. I've lots, so bear with me.

Madam Strickland, one of the things that were discussed here before with previous witnesses was the idea of providing visas. In your presentation you talked about a visa for those women who've come here as sex workers or dancers, or what have you, that would allow them to stay once they're here. My question to you is broader than that.

If we were to review our whole immigration process and actually allow and change the requirement for visas for people who come to work...because the root cause is economic. Women come to Canada for economic reasons, and they take whatever route they can, because the current point system really makes it difficult for them to enter the country. I'm wondering if you could, in addition to the visa for those who are already here, instead of deporting them, provide additional programs and services. I'm assuming that you're saying we do not deport them. In terms of our point system, have you looked at all at the whole immigration structure and how it allows people to come in who need economic help?

11:35 a.m.

Captain, Salvation Army

Capt Danielle Strickland

I haven't. The only thing I've looked into is, particularly, sexually trafficked survivors and, just on the grassroots level, the inadequacy of what exists already. So I'm not a refugee or immigration expert, sorry.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

But at the minimum, you're saying we should provide visas. That's fair. I appreciate that.

11:40 a.m.

Captain, Salvation Army

Capt Danielle Strickland

Yes, and that might not be visas that are forever, but at least for a time where their basic needs and provisions could be met properly, at the very least.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

I like your comment with respect to considering this is a form of slavery, both for children and for women, and that it's a sex crime.

I raised the issue the last time with respect to charging men, decriminalizing the women but charging the users, as in any other crime. If it's a drug crime, you charge the possessor as well the trafficker, right?

11:40 a.m.

Captain, Salvation Army

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

We were told by the witnesses that this would not work because it just goes underground.

I still like the idea that you've suggested. Now you're seeing the same thing, but in Sweden it's working well.

11:40 a.m.

Captain, Salvation Army

Capt Danielle Strickland

Yes, it's working amazingly. Actually, it's one of the best models we have in terms of decreasing prostitution and human trafficking in their country.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

Has it gone underground, though, to a degree, as well?

11:40 a.m.

Captain, Salvation Army

Capt Danielle Strickland

Well, there is always an underground element, but in terms of prostitution use and the amount of prostitutes actually on the street, from what they can count, it has decreased by half, 50%.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

So you're looking at several hits. It's not just one, but a multi-approach--

11:40 a.m.

Captain, Salvation Army

Capt Danielle Strickland

Right. They have strong sentences for repeat offenders, which is another part of their plan.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

And you're right, it is an equality issue and it is a human rights issue, because it's children and women. I agree with your presentation. Thank you very much. I appreciate that.

Because my time is tight, I want to go over to NOIVMWC for a minute.

I have a couple of questions. I understand the issue of fraudulent marriages. I have a lot of immigration cases in my own constituency and have dealt with this issue. The difficulty is in how you prove it. You said that maybe we need to start demanding certificates, and that's proactively what Canada needs to do, but I have a question. I watched a documentary where--you mentioned the Muslim community--the marriages were being blessed by the imam for a short period of time. Maybe it was three months, maybe it was 12 weeks. In one case, I think it was in Afghanistan, they called it a sigha. That was sort of it. Somewhere else, in Iraq, they called it something else, but they facilitate. It's a form of prostitution; it's just that it's done under the guise of marriage.

Is any of that happening in Canada, do you know?

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

You have one minute left for a response.

11:40 a.m.

Researcher, National Organization of Immigrant and Visible Minority Women of Canada

Dr. Shandip Saha

Not that I have heard of. That's something that, from my understanding, happens a lot between the Shia, within the Shia branch of Islam. These are temporary marriages that occur. I have not come across any examples of that as of yet, which doesn't mean it may not be happening, but we just don't know about it.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

I have one very last question.

You mentioned funding. When was that cut? Your funding has been lowered, you said, funding to NOIVMWC.

11:40 a.m.

Project Coordinator, National Organization of Immigrant and Visible Minority Women of Canada

Mirjana Pobric

Yes, we are not in a good situation for the moment, but we'll deal with that.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

So that's a problem?

11:40 a.m.

Project Coordinator, National Organization of Immigrant and Visible Minority Women of Canada