Evidence of meeting #41 for Status of Women in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pension.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sue Calhoun  First Vice-President, Canadian Federation of Business and Professional Women's Clubs
Alice West  Chair, Women Elders in Action
Joanne Blake  Member, Women Elders in Action

February 22nd, 2007 / 3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Committee members, I would suggest that if you want to leave at 4:30 you'd better settle down.

I'd like to draw to the attention of committee members that the witnesses were given parameters of “senior women” when they were called. The committee is looking at a holistic approach of women generally--economic security of women. Whatever group you represent, whether it's senior women, business women, etc., it will be advantageous for us to hear about it.

I know you've come with a 10-minute presentation. I would suggest you keep your presentation to five minutes so there can be a lot of questions and answers and interaction. That's what you're here for. The committee wants to listen, to ask you questions, and to understand. So if you are not able to get through your presentation, you can leave it for us. We will distribute it to committee members. You don't have to have it in both official languages; we'll do the translation.

Ms. West, I know you've come from New Brunswick, and Ms. Blake, you've come from the west. You've come from the west; you've come from the east. Thank you so much for being here. We are very grateful you agreed to come.

We would like to start with Ms. Calhoun, for five to seven minutes maximum, please.

3:30 p.m.

Sue Calhoun First Vice-President, Canadian Federation of Business and Professional Women's Clubs

It's a great pleasure for me to be here today to speak on behalf of the Canadian Federation of Business and Professional Women's Clubs. I'll do my best to keep it down, but I was told that I had 10 minutes, and I spent the day travelling to be here.

BPW Canada, as we calI it, was founded in 1930, along with our International Federation of Business and Professional Women's Clubs. Our mission is to improve the economic, social, political, and employment conditions of women in the workforce. We have clubs in over 100 countries, including about 45 in Canada. We are a non-profit organization, funded strictly through membership. We do not receive government funding, and except for essential services such as bookkeeping, we are all volunteers.

We applaud the standing committee's initiative in undertaking these hearings on the economic security of senior women. Income disparity between senior women and men has been an issue of great concern to BPW Canada over the years.

You received a copy of the brief that we prepared last year. It's a position statement on incomes for senior women. Some of the statistics that I use today come from that brief; others come from a fact sheet produced by the Canadian Research Institute for the Advancement of Women, and I've brought enough copies for everyone.

We know that a couple of decades ago pension reform in Canada vastly improved the incomes of many senior citizens. But there is still a serious discrepancy between the incomes of women and men in their senior years. In 2003 the poverty rate for senior women in Canada was almost double that of men: 19% compared to 10%.

Over 40% of Canadian women over the age of 65 who are unattached, meaning living alone, live in poverty. That's a lot of women. Why is this the case? I'll give you some statistics, and these come from the flyer I handed out.

At every level of education, women in Canada earn less than men on average. For example, in 2003 women who were high school graduates earned 71% of what male high school graduates earned. Women with post-secondary degrees earned 68.9% of what their male counterparts with post-secondary degrees earned.

Even in female-dominated professions such as teaching and nursing, and in clerical work, men still earn more on average. In 2003 the average earnings for women who were full-time, full-year teachers were $47,500; male teachers made an average of $63,000.

In 2004, 70% of women with children under five years of age were in the workforce. That's up from 37% in 1976, yet women are still expected to be the primary caregivers. In 2004 women missed an average of 10 days of work due to these commitments. In a lot of jobs, when you miss work you don't get paid.

How many days did men miss for their family commitments? Does anybody have an idea? It was a day and a half—not much more than in the 1970s.

Canadian women are less likely to have employer-sponsored pension plans and less able to put money aside in private retirement savings plans.

So on average—and this is average, because we can all point to exceptions—women make less money than men throughout their working lives, so they have less money to live on when they retire. Women live longer than men, as all of us know, so women are more likely than men to be living alone at the end of their lives. Hence the high rates of poverty among women over 65 living alone.

So what are the solutions? In our brief we've listed a number of recommendations. I won't go into detail about them; I'll just list them, because I know time is short here today.

The first thing we suggested was an increase in the guaranteed income supplement. We suggested that the government needs to restructure the Canada Pension Plan, so that it replaces 50% of the income of low-income workers. Right now it's structured to replace 25%, which means that those who receive the least income while they're working also receive the least income when they're retired.

We also recommend that the government increase the contribution ceiling for CPP. Right now it's at $40,500, and that's the maximum earnings on which CPP is calculated. We recommend that it be raised to $60,000, which would mean that higher-income earners would contribute more to the fund. We recommend as well that the federal government develop a dropout provision in the CPP similar to what exists for women with young children, who are able to discount the first seven years of their child's life.

We think the government should eliminate taxes for all individuals in Canada with incomes below the poverty line. We also recommend that the government carry out a review and a revision of all legislation and regulations governing private pension plans to remove any provisions that impact negatively on senior women.

Some people say this situation belongs to the past, because women today when they finish school go right into the workforce. Unfortunately, this is not the case. Many factors continue to impact the wages and salaries of women in the workforce today.

I was glad to hear the committee is taking a holistic approach, because we're saying we need to resolve the problems of senior women living in poverty today. The problem will not be resolved unless you take a holistic approach and look at all the things that impact on what women in the workforce are able to make today. Some of the things are as follows: a lack of accessible, affordable, quality child care; women are still the primary caregivers, so they're working part-time, often in low-paid positions; women entrepreneurs can't have a baby and access EI maternity leave; and pay equity seems to largely be stalled in this country. The total of these factors means that the average woman continues to earn less money throughout her working life, so she will have less money to live on when she reaches those so-called golden years.

Old age will continue to be a time of insecurity and suffering for large numbers of senior women, especially those who are living alone without the key social reforms that promote and support the equality of working women. We realize that addressing economic security for senior women is a complex affair, with no quick or easy solution, but it must be done, and BPW Canada urges the federal government to act immediately on these very important issues.

I'm wrapping up, and before I close, I would like to take an opportunity to comment on the recent changes to the mandate and the budget of Status of Women Canada. We are aware that your standing committee has recommended that the government continue funding all activities of Status of Women at the 2005-06 level or higher, and that the government reinstate the previous mandate for another five years. We agree with your assessment, and this is a quote from your own report: “Whereas the draconian changes to the Terms and Conditions to the Women's Program under Status of Women undermines the very basis of our democracy—the ability to advocate on behalf of vulnerable groups...”.

As a group that has advocated on behalf of working women in Canada for more than 75 years, we totally agree. Without the ability to speak out on behalf of those who can't, many advocacy groups and many vulnerable individuals will be effectively silenced. That is not the kind of society that we, BPW Canada, or you I'm sure, want to live in or want to pass on to your children and their children.

Again, we thank the standing committee for inviting us here. On behalf of our president, Fran Donaldson, and our national board of directors, I wish you well in your deliberations.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Thank you.

I hate to cut you off, but I really have to insist that you speak for five to seven minutes, so try to maintain that because we have a lot of questions that have to come through.

Ms. West, you're next. Are you going to be splitting time with Ms. Blake?

3:40 p.m.

Alice West Chair, Women Elders in Action

I'll try to make it as brief as possible, I'll do my very best.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

We will try to be a little flexible as well.

3:40 p.m.

Chair, Women Elders in Action

Alice West

But there's so much to tell you to make you aware of what the real situation is.

Again, I would like to thank you for inviting us, because it's an extremely important thing to be doing, looking at what senior women are facing these days.

I couldn't agree more with my colleague Sue Calhoun. The things she talked about are the things that we are also very concerned with.

Our committee started in early 2000, when we realized that poverty was a great issue. When we looked at housing, transportation, and all the various issues that affected senior women, we realized that poverty was at the base of it all and that we had to do something about it.

We were able, through the Status of Women, which gave us some funding, to do a good deal of research, and we produced several papers on what is happening to senior women. We've been engaged in similar work with the University of British Columbia and Simon Fraser University, which offered us an hour's program once a month where we talk about the issues that confront women. So we are making a dent in the knowledge factor around the Lower Mainland in particular.

We have a number of myths that face women and pensions. We have a paper on it, and I'm going to skip over it because I believe it will be distributed.

For me, on a personal note, I'd like to tell you that this is my third time around on what's happening to the status of women. In the sixties I was involved in the fight for women's equality, period--women's equality in the workplace, and the recognition of women, what they have actually accomplished, and what their role in society is.

In the eighties we had a long fight over the pay equity question. Pay equity is not universal. It is simply not universal. It's a great myth in this country that women have it good--they don't, not necessarily at all. The income gap, which is taken up by caregiving and taken up by child rearing and the rest of it, is a gap in the workplace. That translates into a gap in retirement. And it affects women mostly, because women outlive men.

Women Elders in Action doesn't share the belief that income security for senior women is no longer a concern. We believe that while inroads have been made, the situation for unattached senior women continues to need improvement. More importantly, current trends are destabilizing the promise of secure futures for today's waged women.

We have registered retirement savings plans. Particularly at this time of the year, everybody's talking about them. And they're not going to save the day for most Canadians. RRSPs, which seem to be society's preferred tools, are actually out of the reach of many citizens. They will not be the panacea for retirement income shortfalls for low-income individuals, who struggle to make contributions, if at all.

According to research done for the National Advisory Council on Aging, people with low incomes actually derive no advantage from investing in RRSPs. People with low incomes pay little or no income taxes during their working lives, so their tax breaks are minimal. If they are entitled to the GIS upon retirement, they will actually be penalized when they cash in their RRSPs, as these amounts will inevitably lead to a reduction in the GIS benefits. As well, other provincial and territorial income supplements of subsidized housing may also be diminished, which is a factor that we have to look at.

And there are several other complications on the horizon. We've observed that the U.S. and the U.K., as well as several European countries, have moved to raise the pension age to 67 or 68. Women 55 years and older are often at a very great disadvantage because if they lose their jobs at that particular point in time, they have a very hard time finding other jobs. And they often have to resort to very low-income, part-time, very precarious work.

We think that the Status of Women should be concerned about the number of single mothers and other unattached women who are living in poverty. Obviously these women, who have trouble making ends meet today, will not have the money to put into private pension plans for their future or have working incomes large enough to afford more than the minimal amount of Canada Pension Plan tomorrow.

WE*ACT confirms the points made by the National Advisory Council on Aging that to protect the financial security of women, we need—these are just some of the ideas—a substantial GIS increase, a substantial increase in low-cost housing, and mandatory pension splitting upon divorce to help improve conditions for senior women today and those facing retirement in the future.

We have a larger number of points to make, and we'd be very happy to share them with all of you. It's just unfortunate that my colleague Joanne Blake can't have the time she needs for her presentation.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

I have a couple of minutes I can give you. Would you be able to do it in two minutes?

3:45 p.m.

Joanne Blake Member, Women Elders in Action

Sure, I can cut it down a wee bit.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Member, Women Elders in Action

Joanne Blake

Our major policy recommendations came out in this document, and it's called Pensions in Canada: Policy Reform Because Women Matter. I think the previous two speakers have given a good picture of why women matter.

The majority of retirees are women, partly because of differences in life expectancy between men and women. As men and women age, the proportion of men and women seniors decreases in that there are fewer men.

Currently, almost 50% of unattached women over 65 have incomes below the poverty line. The future for a large number of elder women today seems bleak. For example—and something that Alice and I decided when we were planning this was to give you sort of a personal idea of our experience with pensions and retirement—I just turned 65, and my first pension cheque will arrive at the end of this month. This pension cheque will be $812 for the old age pension and the GIS combined. And what little CPP I managed to gather through my working career is $290. You add those two amounts and it's $1,103, which is $13,236 a year, and I have two degrees. But I raised two children, and I stayed home to raise those two children, and in my fifties I had an illness that took me out of the labour market.

This is just to give you a real-life picture of how even an educated, experienced worker can end up with a very low retirement pension.

I guess that is my time.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Well, one thing we can do is do it in the Q and A, and perhaps you can elaborate on that.

For those members who are a little late, we are closing the meeting at 4:30, because some of the people have to go, and I didn't want the committee to disappear.

We will start off with the first round, and Ms. Beaumier, for five minutes.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Colleen Beaumier Liberal Brampton West, ON

Thank you.

I'd like to congratulate all three of you on the work you're doing. I think many of us in our society tend to forget some of these issues until we're confronted with them.

My focus has been on immigrants, and not just on immigrants but on seniors who are brought to this country. Many of them are being brought here as part of family reunification, and as you know, income requirements aren't all that high in order to bring your parents over. We now have a two-tier system in this country, meaning that if you come from a European country with which we have signed pension agreements, then you get your pension--actually a quarter of the pension, the old age security. We have a lot of immigrants coming here from third world countries. Their families are struggling, and the government--not just this current one, but governments in the past--has decided that these people are not eligible for pensions, and that they have to be here for 10 years.

So that's one of my pushes right now. I don't know if it's going to get royal acceptance or not, but it's a very serious issue.

The other very serious issue we have is with immigrant women who have come here primarily as domestics. We know that once they're no longer needed to take care of children in these homes, they go out into the workforce, and they generally have to take low-paying jobs, with no union protection and no labour protection, in the service industry. It's hard, heavy work, and as you get into your fifties you begin to get a little bit arthritic, and you're not quite as strong as you were to be able to care for others. You have $1,103 to live on, and there are many women living in these circumstances.

What I'm concerned about is the lack of affordable housing. I want you to address that issue. Maybe you have some numbers on the number of women--I don't know where they live--who are maybe tossed from one family to the next.

The other issue is income splitting. It may help lower-income families in which there are two people, but how can we come up with a solution to take women who have no income to split and make it more equitable for them?

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

You've left only two minutes to answer now. Go ahead.

3:50 p.m.

Chair, Women Elders in Action

Alice West

The problem of immigrant women is one that we have encountered, and we've been trying to figure out just what we can do with it. It's very unfortunate that even if you're a Canadian citizen, but you're an immigrant late in life, you get only one-quarter of the old age pension for each year that you've lived in Canada between the ages of 18 and 65. We have some of the same problems with aboriginal women, and we're having a rather difficult time getting in contact with some of these women who are leading very poor lives.

Income splitting is something that really has to be looked at in total, and the regulations that govern pensions in Canada have to be looked at and have to be far more equitable again--and each clause taken word for word almost. The same goes for CPP. CPP is not very equitable even when it comes to survivor benefits. It's extremely poor, and there has to be something done.

Perhaps my colleagues here would like to add to that.

3:50 p.m.

First Vice-President, Canadian Federation of Business and Professional Women's Clubs

Sue Calhoun

I would just say that when BPW Canada prepared our brief last year, we realized that what we came up with was really only the tip of the iceberg. It is a very complex issue. We are all volunteers in our organization, and we do our best, but most of us are still trying to make a living as well. The whole question of the treatment of immigrant women in terms of pensions was one that we did discuss. We did not come up with solutions just because we didn't have time to pursue that, but we do see our brief as really the start of something, and we still have a task force within the organization to pursue some of the issues.

I think you make a very good point about affordable housing, because that's obviously part of the big picture. What we're dealing with is a very complex issue that touches a lot of different sectors, and housing obviously is one of them.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Thank you.

We will now go to Ms. Demers.

You have five minutes.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Nicole Demers Bloc Laval, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good afternoon, mesdames. Thank you for telling us about your experiences. It's very enriching for us to know what is actually going on in the field.

Ms. West, you told us about a few issues concerning 55-year-old women who lose their jobs. Previously, there was the Program for Older Worker Adjustment, POWA, which enabled older workers who lost their jobs to make it to retirement with a decent income. That program no longer exists. It's been transformed.

Do you believe that kind of program could help women who lose their jobs after the age of 55? It's harder for them to find another job than men.

Ms. Calhoun, Bill C-36 is currently being considered by the Human Resources Committee. It's a very interesting bill: people will only have to apply for the Guaranteed Income Supplement once in order to automatically receive it thereafter. I must admit that the government has introduced a very promising bill. However, we're not talking about raising the Guaranteed Income Supplement to the poverty line. The poverty line in Canada is approximately $14,000, which is very low. In Quebec, it's $17,000 for a single person. So the poverty line is much higher in the provinces.

Should we establish a poverty line that takes the needs of older persons more into account? Needs increase as we age: drugs, housing, food, taxis and so on. Could we increase people's incomes?

3:55 p.m.

First Vice-President, Canadian Federation of Business and Professional Women's Clubs

Sue Calhoun

I know the program you referred to, POWA. That program was very beneficial, but it wasn't accessible in all provinces. In New Brunswick, for example, very few people had access to it, even though it was a federal program.

My company conducted a study on that program. It was a good idea because a number of people in the Atlantic region worked in the fisheries. Not only men and fishermen, but also women who worked in plants lost their jobs because of the cod moratorium.

It was a good program, but it should have been accessible in all provinces, not just in a few.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Would you like to add anything more, Ms. West or Ms. Blake?

3:55 p.m.

Chair, Women Elders in Action

Alice West

You'll have to pardon my lack of French. If you heard me, you'd laugh. I'll try to do this in English.

Yes, we think this program is very important. People over age 55 have the most difficulty finding any job. As a matter of fact—and I have to admit I did work for the federal government at one time—we found that even people over the age of 40 had greater difficulty finding work.

It's extremely important that we have a bridge somewhere between involuntary layoff.... People don't close down the fish plants or the logging industry or whatever it might be; the corporations do it for their financial benefit. But it leaves the working person alone.They may qualify for EI for a very limited period of time, so they need that bridging. It has to be a decent bridging; it cannot be a minimal amount, which barely keeps body and soul together.

So yes, we're very much in favour of that, and we would certainly support things like that.

Unfortunately, I don't know what Bill C-36 says, so I can't comment on it.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Thank you, Ms. Demers.

We will now go to Ms. Smith for five minutes.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

I want to thank you so much for coming today.

As a status of women committee, we wanted to do research especially on economic concerns that senior women have.

I was interested in something you said, Ms. Calhoun. I was a teacher for 22 years. You were saying that women who are in the teaching profession often aren't paid the same as men. Both my husband and I taught, and I actually earned more than he did because I was better educated. He's well educated as well, but in most school divisions they pay according to your education, not according to your gender. I was also on the teachers' union, negotiating for wages and things like that. So on what basis would you say that?

When you look at senior women, there are a lot of women who went into the teaching profession, and likewise, into the nursing profession. My sister, a nurse, was paid exactly the same, according to her education.

Can you tell me what you base that on? What we are missing here? How did you get your data?

4 p.m.

First Vice-President, Canadian Federation of Business and Professional Women's Clubs

Sue Calhoun

Those figures come from the fact sheet that was handed out to people today. It was produced by the Canadian Research Institute for the Advancement of Women. If you look at that—

4 p.m.

Conservative

Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

I have that, but my question is not that. Thank you. My question is, where did their data come from? How did they get their data, and what was their sampling?

Being in the teaching profession for so many years, I just know that this is not the case. I negotiated, and we went across province, all across Canada. I can say that to my knowledge, after 22 years of being in the teaching profession, both women and men are paid according to their education, not according to their gender.

4 p.m.

First Vice-President, Canadian Federation of Business and Professional Women's Clubs

Sue Calhoun

That information comes from Statistics Canada, a document called Women in Canada: A Gender-based Statistical Report, fifth edition, produced in 2006 by Industry Canada.