Status of Women Committee on March 11th, 2008

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Order, please. We're going to begin, members.

We have with us Louise Levonian, general director and senior assistant in the deputy minister's office, tax policy branch, and Mireille Éthier, senior chief, federal-provincial taxation section.

You will have a lot of opportunity. We've had PCO and Treasury Board, and they've given us a flowchart. A lot of issues we have been discussing on the gender budget deal with tax policies as well. We would love to have you help us through the process. You may face some difficult questions, but that's what we're trying to understand. Our job is to understand how to move forward, and taxation is an area in which we would like to understand how to move forward.

I believe you each have presentations. You only? Okay. So you have 10 minutes, and then we'll have the question and answer period.

Thank you.

[Louise Levonian, General Director, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister's Office, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance]

Thank you for inviting me to speak to the members of the standing committee on the very important issue of gender-based analysis.

Thank you for inviting me to speak to the members of the standing committee.

With me—you introduced her already—is Mireille Éthier, who is the senior chief in the intergovernmental tax policy division of the tax policy branch. Mireille has worked on gender-based analysis for the last three years.

My deputy, Rob Wright, appeared in front of the committee last year—on April 17, 2007. He spoke about Finance's accomplishments and commitments with respect to GBA.

I think it is useful for me to start by touching upon some elements of my deputy's presentation again because they are central to the topic of interest to the committee, gender-based analysis.

My remarks today will thus touch on three elements. First, I will discuss the role and mandate of the Department of Finance and the ensuing implications for the conduct of gender-based analysis. Second, I will highlight progress made in the Department of Finance in the context of gender-based analysis, focusing on what we did since my deputy came to speak last year. Third, I'll share with you the objectives we have set to ensure that, going forward, gender-based analysis is conducted broadly and consistently across the department.

First I'll discuss the role and mandate of the Department of Finance.

As my deputy said last year in his presentation to this committee, the Department of Finance is unique in that it plays two roles within the Government of Canada: it is a central agency but it also develops and implements policies.

In its role as a central agency, the Department of Finance assesses policies proposed by other departments. Therefore, in these circumstances, departments that sponsor the policies are responsible for gender-based analysis. I understand that my colleague from the Privy Council Office, Anita Biguzs, touched on this last week.

With regard to the department's role in developing policies, we need to distinguish between macro-economic and structural policies.

Macro-economic policies deal with aggregate economic variables such as fiscal surpluses and fiscal deficit targets and the level of public debt. These policies provide the economic and fiscal framework within which structural policies are developed.

Since macro-economic policies are by definition not targeted to any sector or any group of individuals in particular, gender-based analysis is not applicable.

Structural policies, on the other hand, can impact specific sectors and segments of the population. Since these policies could potentially have different measurable impacts on women and men, it is on those policies that gender-based analysis is carried out.

Examples of structural policy for which the Department of Finance is responsible include tax, tariff policy, managing federal borrowing, administering transfers to the provinces, and developing an effective system of regulation for the financial sector.

In this context, as well as when proposals go forward from the department to our minister, gender-based analysis is included. The department has included a section in its template used for budget briefing documents that means proposals must include gender-based analysis.

Being from tax policy branch myself, I'm most familiar with how gender-based analysis is conducted in relation to new tax policy proposals put forward in the budget process. Clearly some policies lend themselves to such analysis because of their nature. Personal income tax measures are a good example, when we are looking at increasing a credit or changing an income deduction.

Some other policies are more difficult to analyze from a gender perspective. That's why we were very careful to say that we would carry out gender-based analysis where possible.

Changing the depreciation rate for certain assets, such as a pipeline, for example, is much more difficult to study through a gender lens than personal income tax changes of the type I just mentioned.

It's the department's view that gender-based analysis is one of the many lenses that can be adopted to analyze the impact of proposed policies on various segments of the Canadian population. It's ultimately up to elected representatives to weigh the different factors, whether from an income, regional, or gender perspective, whenever possible or wherever relevant in the policy decision process.

What progress have we made? Last year when my deputy spoke to you, he was proud to report that the department had delivered on all commitments it had made in response to your report, “Building Blocks for Success”.

First, the department had appointed a gender-based analysis champion—myself. Second, the department had conducted a pilot project to train tax policy analysts and managers in gender-based analysis. Third, the department has continued holding pre-budget consultations with various groups in both 2006 and 2007.

Over the last year, the department has furthered its work on gender-based analysis. I'm happy to report to the committee that the department has made significant progress towards fulfilling its further commitments that were spelled out in the letter from the minister responsible for the status of women, the Honourable Bev Oda, to Judy Sgro, the chair of the Standing Committee on the Status of Women at that time, in August 2006.

To help gender-based analysis, the department committed to post on its internal website some good examples of gender-based analysis—that is, best practices—and we're in the process and almost prepared to do that.

It committed to offer gender-based analysis training to branches other than tax policy. Training was offered on January 30 and 31, 2008, to some 32 officers and managers from all branches of the department. That's over and above the pilot project, which about 30 people attended. So in total, we've trained 60 people in the Department of Finance. There are approximately 300 managers and analysts who work on these issues, so 60% is quite a significant portion who have the expertise to pass on to others to enable them to do gender-based analysis.

We committed to include gender-based analysis as part of the department's recommended curriculum in the training offered to all new employees. This has been done, and courses will be given in the fall. So from now on, any new analysts and managers coming into the department will be trained on gender-based analysis.

As well, the department committed to report, in its departmental performance report, on the progress made in meeting commitments. The department included a section on gender-based analysis in its 2006-07 DPR.

In the section, “Program Policy: Tax Policy”, the following sentence was included, the purpose of which was to raise the profile of gender-based analysis in the department: “Regardless of their objective, proposed policies are reviewed for gender and environmental impacts.”

In the chapter on responses to parliamentary committees, audits and evaluations, a box summarizing the various departmental commitments with respect to gender-based analysis was added and the following statement was included: “The Department is working towards fulfilling these commitments and will report on all of them in next year’s DPR.”

This can be seen as a sign of how serious we are when it comes to implementing gender-based analysis.

Going forward, I'd like to stress the fact that the department has adopted a systematic approach to conducting gender-based analysis—that is, all policy proposals going to the minister in the budget context now include a section on gender-based analysis, and gender-based analysis is developed and conducted when the policies themselves are being developed. So it is now an intrinsic part of the policy work.

The systemic approach allows for gender-based analysis to be included from the earliest stage of development of policy. We also believe it is an efficient way to proceed in that it is the same officer who performs gender-based analysis who develops the policy. As most policy proposals developed at the department are complex and technical in nature, this approach eliminates the risk of the person conducting the gender-based analysis not understanding the proposal and it reduces the time necessary to complete a good gender-based analysis.

I would be the first to acknowledge that the analysis we are doing in this respect is not perfect, but we have made progress in the quality of gender-based analysis included with the policy proposals that are put forward to our minister.

I've been the gender-based analysis champion for about a year now. I see my role as fostering visibility of gender-based analysis. The statements we included in the departmental performance report last year contribute to heightening the visibility and importance of gender-based analysis.

As well, I want to ensure that gender-based analysis is not only done, but it's done well.

I see my role as facilitating the performance of gender-based analysis. We've provided training and will continue to do so, and we will post examples of gender-based analysis on our internal website to help guide those conducting gender-based analysis. With the training that has taken place and that will continue to take place, and now that gender-based training is part of the training offered to new employees, I believe, going forward, the analysis can only improve.

Let me mention as well that the reaction to the gender-based analysis training was extremely good. The overwhelming majority of participants thought that after the training they were in a good position to be able to conduct good gender-based analysis in their respective area of responsibility.

I'd like to thank Status of Women Canada for its help in carrying out gender-based analysis training. Overall, I would say the department has come a long way over the last two years and I look forward to continued progress in that respect.

I would like to thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk to you today, and I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you very much.

We will start our first round of questions at seven minutes.

Go ahead, Mr. Pearson.

[Glen Pearson, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thanks for coming in this morning. We're still trying to get our heads around the process and how it all works, and the last couple of weeks have been very helpful.

In terms of the pre-budget process, could you give us some insight into the consultation process you go through? Do you approach groups? Do they approach you? Can you give us an example of some of the women's organizations you would have consulted with before that happened?

[Louise Levonian]

I'm glad you asked me that question. I expected that type of question on the budget process, having read the transcripts from the Privy Council Office meeting and the Treasury Board meeting.

I'm speaking to this as the gender-based analysis champion for the Department of Finance. Basically, policies are developed in departments. Proposals are looked at. Everything is going on in departments as well as in other areas, but I'll take them in chunks.

Policies are being developed in departments. Gender-based analysis is being done in the departments as these policies are being developed, and they come through the cabinet committee process. This is one aspect. The policies are developed; they come through the cabinet committee process. They go through the policy committee, the social and economic, etc. Those policies are worked on more and finally approved, and then there's approval in principle for these policies from a cabinet perspective. That's one mechanism that feeds into the department for determining how the budget process works.

The Department of Finance, of course, then looks at the economic and fiscal context--what's happening in the economy and what that means in terms of the amount of money that is going to be available in that broader context. It sets the framework that's available for the funding that's going to fund the different proposals.

Then a broad consultation is undertaken. The House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance does consultations and writes a report, which we then review. It feeds directly into the process as to what the recommendations are. That's another perspective that feeds into the budget process.

The Minister of Finance goes across the country consulting, generally. He gets ideas and submissions for the budget process. Also, the Department of Finance has an online consultation, so anybody who wants to can feed into that process. All these ideas go into the pot. They'll have different weights, etc., but they all go into the policy ideas that make up the budget.

The department itself meets.... Basically, in my tenure at Finance we've never said no to a group that wanted to meet with us, generally speaking. If somebody wants to come and give us an idea, we'd listen to that idea, and that would also go into the pot for consideration.

[Glen Pearson, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I only have so much time. Could I ask you to talk about a specific example?

I met with a couple of women's groups in my riding over the weekend. In the 2008 budget, there is the idea of putting forward the $5,000 tax-free account, for instance. It could also be built on for future years for the unused portion.

We know from this committee that women make significantly less than men. Women entrepreneurs have to put more of their personal income into what they're doing than men do. That's one of the things we learned. Also, they're much more likely to face family care responsibilities that are more difficult.

These women have done somewhat of an analysis of it, and they're wondering if a gender-based analysis was done on that particular issue. It seems to me that what it's done is spread the gap between men and women even further. I'm wondering if that's a fair statement. I would like to know if a GBA was done on that particular policy. I'm not trying to be partisan about it; I'm just trying to understand how these legislative things get passed. Are they actually going through a GBA lens?

[Louise Levonian]

Yes, gender-based analysis was definitely conducted on the tax-free savings account. I can go into it a little bit. I have that material with me.

[Glen Pearson, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I just wondered what the results were. Some of the women's groups have done that, and their view is that it actually widens the gap. I'd be interested in your viewpoint on that.

[Louise Levonian]

A tax-free savings account tends to benefit the bottom range of tax filers. Three-quarters of the benefits go to those in the bottom two tax brackets. The reason is that, first of all, there's a cap on the amount that can be put in. Second, when the savings come out of a tax-free savings account, they're not going to affect the Canada child tax benefit, the GST credit, or the GIS, etc., because when it comes out, it's not taxed and not included as income. Those benefits are still going to be maintained. It's a fairly strong incentive for low- and middle-income individuals to save, because those impacts aren't going to be there.

There's also--

[Glen Pearson, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

They would have to have that income, though, to be able to do it, correct?

[Louise Levonian]

You do have to have some income to do that.

[Glen Pearson, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Disproportionately more women are in more strict economic circumstances than men. It would seem to me that this would actually just continue the status quo the way it's going, that men will continue to be able to take advantage of that particular program more than women.

I'm just asking. I'm trying to understand.

[Louise Levonian]

It's true that generally speaking men earn more income than women do, but the tax-free savings account is actually one of the things that will help women in those circumstances. First of all, the tax-free savings account, that $5,000, isn't tied to income. So if you're at home working, you're still allowed to accumulate that $5,000. The question of whether or not there are earnings there to feed into that is another one. But also, a spouse is allowed to contribute to the spouse's tax-free savings account. So the two individuals get it, and even though someone may not be earning, money can still be put into that account.

Also, a spouse can name the other person as the beneficiary upon death, so that amount gets added over and above what the other spouse's allowed amount is. So it doubles up, in a sense.

[Glen Pearson, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

How much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

You have about half a minute.

[Glen Pearson, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I appreciate these answers. Is it possible for us to get that analysis?

[Louise Levonian]

The gender-based analysis, certainly. Yes, we can do that.

[Glen Pearson, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you.

We now go to Madam Deschamps, sept minutes s'il vous plaît.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to start by welcoming you and thanking you for your presentation, Ms. Levonian. Mr. Pearson has already asked some of the questions I was intending to ask you.

Were you involved in the pre-budget consultations?

[Louise Levonian]

Yes.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

We were told that during the 2007 pre-budget consultations, the minister met with women's groups, including the Canadian Nurses Association, the Native Women's Association of Canada and Real Women of Canada. How do you go about defining which groups or associations will be given priority during the consultation process? Could you tell us which women's groups were consulted during the 2008 pre-budget process? I imagine you have a website.

Some briefs are sent in by various groups and associations. What was the general point made in these briefs? There is a common denominator: women. I would like to know whether that shows. Did any theme emerge from these briefs or the suggestions made by these women's groups with a view to achieving greater equity?

[Mireille Éthier, Senior Chief, Federal-Provincial Taxation Section, Department of Finance]

That is an excellent question. We could certainly provide you with the list of all the groups we heard from. We reviewed the briefs generally, and we reviewed particularly those presented by women's groups. There was not really a common theme that cropped up in all the presentations. For example, the Fédération des femmes du Québec raised a number of particular issues. For its part, the Conseil d'intervention pour l'accès des femmes au travail focused more on the labour market.

If you wish, we could provide you with a summary of the main themes. We could also give you the list of the groups we heard from, so that the committee does not have to read all of the presentations.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I would appreciate that, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Yes.