Status of Women Committee on Oct. 8th, 2009

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

The meeting will now begin.

As the committee knows, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), today we are looking at increasing the participation of women in non-traditional occupations.

We have, as you see on your agenda, witnesses from the Department of Human Resources and Social Development Canada and witnesses from Statistics Canada.

We will then go on, as you know, to the motion we dealt with last week, and we will deal with that in committee business after this part is over.

We shall begin now with the Department of Human Resources and Social Development Canada.

Thank you very much for coming.

We'll begin with Mr. Green.

I think you have Mr. Green's speaking notes with you.

[Martin Green, Director General, Workplace Partnerships Directorate, Department of Human Resources and Social Development Canada]

You do.

Thank you, and good afternoon. Thank you for inviting my colleagues and me here today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Excuse me.

Sorry, Mr. Green. You have 10 minutes to present to us, and then we have a question period in which everyone will have an opportunity to ask you questions from each one of the parties.

Thank you.

[Martin Green]

Thanks for inviting my colleagues and me here today.

My name is Martin Green. I'm the director general of the workplace partnerships directorate within the skills and employment branch of Human Resources and Skills Development Canada. My directorate is responsible for advancing workplace partnerships with industry, labour, provinces and territories, and key stakeholders to ensure that Canadians have the skills and knowledge required to participate and succeed in the workplace.

I am pleased to speak today to the Standing Committee on the Status of Women to explain my department's role in supporting women enter non-traditional occupations and apprenticeship programs.

Unquestionably the most significant labour market change over the last few decades has been the rising educational attainment and increased labour market participation by women. Indeed, as of August of this year, women represented 50.3% of Canada's paid workforce.

I had planned to go through some background context, but I think my friends from Statistics Canada are going to do that, so I am going to start with the participation of women in apprenticeship programs.

According to the registered apprenticeship information system, women's representation in apprenticeship has been increasing over the last 10 years. By the end of 2007 there were 32,000 women registered as apprentices in Canada, an increase of 187% over the last 10 years. By the end of 2007, women represented 10.7% of all registered apprentices in Canada. The number of women registering in trades, which have always been male dominated, is increasing--for example, the number of women registered in building construction trades has increased from 1,560 to 5,315 between 1998 and 2007. This represents a significant increase of 241% during that time period.

Another sector that has shown a positive trend is motor vehicle and heavy equipment repair, where the number of women registered increased from 545 to 1,380, for a 170% increase during the same period. Despite these increases, we fully recognize that women are still underrepresented in the skilled trades.

Results from the 2007 national apprenticeship survey, a survey of over 30,000 apprentices across Canada, shows that 62% of females entered apprenticeship because they were interested in the trade, compared to only 50% of males. Only 7% of females found the apprenticeship technical training difficult, as compared to 12% of males. Only 10% of females found the on-the-job work as an apprentice difficult, compared to 15% of males.

While the global economic situation deteriorated further and faster than anticipated, the prognosis for the economy is improving. Past recessions have affected men and women quite differently. This downturn is no exception. Job losses have fallen more heavily on men than women. While women represent 47% of total employment, they account for only 21% of the job losses from October 2008 to August 2009. This is consistent with the current experience of the United States and the European Union.

Overall there is evidence that while women are increasing their educational attainment and their presence in the labour market, there are still gaps to be addressed. The federal government, in partnerships with provinces, territories, and other stakeholders, continues to work to remove barriers for women who want to participate in the labour market and ensure they are treated equitably.

The Government of Canada has a major role to play in addressing national skills and employment issues. This being said, the short answer to the question of the federal government's role relating to encouraging women to enter non-traditional occupations is that it's a shared responsibility. We work closely with provincial and territorial governments, employers, labour, and other stakeholders to design and implement initiatives that will assist in reducing barriers to employment and improving choices and opportunities for all Canadians.

One way in which we do this is through transfers to provinces and territories, which are best placed to design and deliver labour market programming specific to the needs of their populations. Labour market development agreements provide funding to PTs for skills development and training programs for EI-eligible clients.

Labour market agreements fund provincial and territorial labour market programs and services that focus on skills development for unemployed individuals who are not eligible for employment insurance. This includes underrepresented groups such as women, aboriginal people, and new immigrants. There are 250,000 to 300,000 women who are supported through LMDA agreements each year. The Ontario labour market agreement tracks the number of women served, while the Nova Scotia labour market agreement will target service at unemployed and low-skilled employed Nova Scotians who are not EI-eligible, including women.

To assist Canadians in the downturn, Canada's economic action plan announced a time limited increase of over $1 billion over two years for labour market development agreements and $500 million over two years for the creation of the strategic training and transition fund. The strategic training and transition fund is designed to be flexible to meet the diverse circumstances across regions, and it can be used for clients whether or not they are eligible for EI.

These agreements provide PTs with the flexibility to meet the skills development and training needs of their populations, obviously including women. In addition to these transfers to provinces and territories, we, as a department, offer a variety of programs, working closely with provincial and territorial governments, employers, and other stakeholders to encourage labour market attachment of Canadian men and women.

The department also contributes in a significant way to the Government of Canada's objective of advancing economic equality for women. Trades and apprenticeship, the sector council program, and the aboriginal skills and employment partnership program are some examples of such programming.

Apprenticeship is largely a provincial responsibility; however, the Government of Canada plays a key role in developing a highly skilled and mobile skilled trades workforce, encouraging access for women to the skilled trades, including non-traditional trades. The Government of Canada provides the national secretariat to the red seal program, which facilitates interprovincial mobility of men and women working as skilled tradespeople by harmonizing requirements and certification in 50 different trades. The red seal trades represent almost 89% of registered apprenticeships in this country.

The Canadian Council of Directors of Apprenticeship, of which HRSDC is a member, is responsible for administering the red seal program.

To address the financial barriers of apprentices, the Government of Canada launched the apprenticeship incentive grant in January 2007. It provides a $1,000 taxable cash grant to eligible apprentices upon completion of the first or second year of the apprenticeship program in one of the designated red seal trades. Since implementation, over 115,000 of these grants have been issued.

As part of Canada's economic action plan, and building on the incentive grant, the apprenticeship completion grant provides a $2,000 taxable cash grant available to apprentices who complete their apprenticeship program and receive their journeyperson certification in a designated red seal trade. The completion grant was launched in July 2009, with eligibility retroactive to January 1 of this year. Since implementation, nearly 5,000 of these grants have been issued.

As a combined result of the completion grant and the existing apprenticeship incentive grant, registered apprentices who completed their apprenticeship training and became certified in a designated red seal trade could be eligible to receive a total of $4,000.

The tradesperson's tools deduction provides employed tradespersons with an annual deduction up to $500 for the acquisition and cost of new tools required for employment in excess of $1,000.

Through the sector council program, the Government of Canada is working with the private sector to enhance workers' skills by increasing employer investment in skills development and promoting workplace learning and training. Sector councils exist in 33 key sectors of the Canadian economy, such as automotive, aviation, biotechnology, child care, construction, environment, mining, and steel. Several national sector councils have identified and started implementing strategies designed to encourage women to enter non-traditional occupations. Let me share a few highlights from some of these sector councils.

The Construction Sector Council has a strong interest in increasing women's participation in non-traditional occupations. The council will be hosting a one-day symposium in March 2010 to share the findings with industry and other key stakeholders of its 2008 study on women in construction and to discuss systemic issues related to the low rate of women's participation in the construction industry. The end goal is to develop an industry-led strategy to attract, recruit, and retain women in construction.

This study clearly shows this industry's commitment to expand its domestic labour pool by improving access to industry careers. The symposium and results of the 2008 study will inform the sector's programming with a view to addressing these issues.

The Information and Communications Technology Council believes in the importance of attracting more women and better integrating women in the Canadian ICT industry. Last year the council engaged its industry sectors in a project called women in information and communication technology. The project's goal was to develop a framework articulating the council's role in the attraction, recruitment, and retention of women in the sector and to look at current best practices. Activities have included two national forums on women in ICT, held in Vancouver and Toronto in February 2008 with over 80 industry leaders across Canada, and the development of a “women in ICT” section on the ICTC website.

As mentioned earlier, there are several other programs that provide support to improve the labour market participation of men and women, often targeting particular client groups. The Government of Canada works with employers to target training to Canada's aboriginal population. The economic action plan enhanced the aboriginal skills and employment partnership program, which fosters partnerships across the spectrum, including the private sector, to help aboriginal Canadians receive skills and employment training. Several of these projects focus on apprenticeships, with aboriginal women and youth as target client groups. Similarly, many of the projects are in non-traditional sectors such as mining.

Another notable example is the aboriginal human resources development strategy, which helps first nations, Métis, and Inuit women prepare for, find, and keep jobs, and it also offers important labour market supports such as child care.

I have provided a broad overview of the federal role as it pertains to women in non-traditional roles. There are many other elements of federal policy programming and legislation that I have not spoken about specifically but which do impact on this complex and changing labour market dynamic. For instance, the Government of Canada's initiatives under student aid, child care, employment insurance, and employment equity are all a few of the important aspects of the discussion.

I understand this committee and HUMA have been looking at some of these areas separately. Clearly women have made remarkable progress in education and labour market participation. That said, we need to continue to address persistent gender gaps and challenges.

I look forward to discussing this and your questions today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Mr. Green.

I'm going to ask the direction of the committee on this one. We now have Statistics Canada. It may very well be that if we listen to Statistics Canada we can ask questions on everything in one fell swoop, because Statistics Canada statistics may have a bearing on what we just heard from Mr. Green.

What do you think? Would you like to bring in Statistics Canada for 10 minutes and then do the questions and answers?

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Are they all here?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Yes, okay.

All right, Madame Le Petit.

[Christel Le Petit, Chief, Analysis and Special Projects, Labour Statistics Division, Statistics Canada]

Thank you very much. I want to thank the committee for providing Statistics Canada with an opportunity to tell you what we know about the labour market for women, and their education, in non-traditional fields.

My name is Christel Le Petit. I'm chief of analysis in labour statistics. Tracey Leesti is the assistant director of labour statistics.

I'm going to be talking about the labour portion for women. I'll be followed by Yvan Clermont, assistant director in the Centre for Education Statistics, and Kathryn McMullen, chief of analysis in the Centre for Education Statistics, who will complete the story with a picture of the education side.

As you see on slide number 2, as Mr. Green already mentioned, women have been increasing their participation in the labour market over the last 30 years. That is a really big movement, and it underlies a lot of the findings when we look at the increasing share of women in occupations. As a result, the gap between the number of men and the number of women employed has narrowed. The latest data from part of 2009 shows that men have been affected more by the downturn, narrowing that gap even further.

Women are participating more. However, they participate in different types of occupations than men. On slide number 3 you see the breakdown of where women work versus where men work. If we look at the four top types, we have sales and service; business, finance, and administration; social science, education, government services, and religion; and health. If we put those four groups together, 80% of women work in those occupations. For men, this number is only 37%. This was the proportion in 2008. It hasn't changed very much over the last 20 years or so. Women are participating more, but they go into different occupations.

As I said, they've progressed, and there are some occupations in which they even surpass men. Women used to be less than 50% of the workforce and are now more than 50% of the workforce in these occupations: machine operators and related workers in textiles; managers in arts, recreation, and sport; and insurance and real estate sales.

Women have also increased substantially in some other occupations, notably in health sciences; as judges, lawyers, and notaries; as physicians and optometrists; and as managers in art, culture, and sport. Those are some of the occupations where women have made the most increases in their share.

In terms of non-traditional occupations, which is the focus of this committee, internationally there is no standard for what a non-traditional occupation is, nor is there a standard at Statistics Canada. What we have done for today is use a definition that defines a non-traditional occupation as an occupation in which fewer than 25% of the workers were women in 1987. In 1987, 9.9% of the workers in non-traditional occupations were women. That proportion has increased. By 2008 it had reached 15.4%.

Keeping that definition of a non-traditional occupation, slide 6 shows where women have increased the most. As you see, there's really a mix of types of non-traditional occupations where women have increased their share. There are some professional ones, some technical ones, and some managerial ones. There aren't a lot in the trades, however. That's a key finding. They're increasing their share, but they're not increasing in the trades. When you look in a bit more detail at the trades, the types of trades women pick haven't changed very much. They would be seen as traditional women's trades: hairstylists, tailors, dressmakers, bakers, and cooks. When women go into the trades, they go into very specific kinds of trades.

In the more male-specific trades, we still see a very low proportion of women. These are trades such as refrigeration and air-conditioning mechanics, gas fitters, cement finishers, and bricklayers. There haven't been a lot of changes recently.

The committee also asked which are the non-traditional occupations in which women have not increased their share. Because women have increased their participation overall, there's a very short list of occupations in which they haven't increased their share. Of the 139 categories we looked at, women did not increase their share in only six.

This concludes my overview of the labour market. There are lots of reasons why women are working in certain occupations. One of them is education, and Yvan will continue.

[Yvan Clermont, Assistant Director, Tourism and the Centre for Education Statistics Division, Statistics Canada]

Thank you, Christel.

First, Madam Chair, I want to thank you for your invitation to provide you—you and the committee members—with some data on non-traditional studies for women.

We have just seen the current picture of employment for women of all ages in Canada. In general, that picture speaks to the career choices made in the near and distant past.

What I would like to do here is focus on the new generations of women about to enter the labour market and the fields they have chosen. We want to focus in particular on occupations traditionally held by men.

Today, this overview of women's education gives us an idea of the forces that will influence the women entering the labour market in the near future. The changing role of women in society has had an impact in recent years on their education, and this change is clearly illustrated by recent census data, shown in the graph on page 8.

For older generations, it is quite clear that, overall, men formerly had a higher level of education than women. This is a relatively well known fact. This situation has changed significantly in recent generations. Not only have women caught up to men's education levels, but also, according to data from the last census, in 2006, the number of women under 35 attending university was greater than the number of men.

For some time now, women, like men, are choosing in greater numbers to attend college or university. But where then are these women choosing to pursue their postsecondary education? In the graph on page 9, we see that younger generations of women are much more likely to go to university than women from previous generations. As I indicated previously, this is relatively well known. It is especially true for college and university studies.

In fact, according to data from the last census, we also find that 33% of women aged from 25 to 34 had a university degree, compared to 25% of men of the same age. Although equally applicable to men and women, fewer women are going into trades-related occupations. The same is not quite true for the trades. In fact, at the time of the 2006 census, fewer women aged 25 to 34 had a trade certification than in previous generations. This is also seen with younger men, but fewer of them attend college and university.

On page 10, you see the areas of university study for women. The data is for two years, 1992 and 2007. Overall, 56% of university graduates in 1992 and 61% in 2007 were women. The graph reveals four main points.

First, in both 1992 and 2007, the majority of university graduates in health- and education-related fields were women. This is also probably quite a well-known fact.

Second, the percentage of female graduates went from less than 50%—a minority—in 1992, to over 50%—a majority—in 2007, in two areas of study: physical and life sciences, as well as agriculture, natural resources and conservation.

Third, the percentage of female university graduates increased in all disciplines; they now represent over 50% of all graduates in all areas of study, with three exceptions: architecture and engineering; mathematics and information sciences; and personal, protective and transportation services.

It is also interesting to note that the percentage of female graduates has dropped in only one area of study during this 15-year period, and that is in mathematics and information sciences.

Let us turn now to page 11. If we consider Canadians with a trade certification, we see a significant split between men and women. The most popular areas of study for men are also those with the fewest number of women. Overall, 37% of all Canadians with a trade certification in 2006 were women.

This table shows the five most significant areas of study for men, and the female participation rate for each. They are: mechanical and repair technologies, construction trades, precision production, engineering technologies/technicians, and transportation and materials moving. Nearly 80% of all trades-certified men specialized in one of these five fields of study. As you can see, the percentage of women working in these same fields varies between 2% and 3% only, to 10% in engineering technologies and 7% in transportation.

On page 12, of course, we see that some women are trade-certified. Where are they? The table shows the most popular fields of study for women who hold a trade certificate. The five categories shown here together account for 86% of all women. Only 9% work in the other specializations.

In summary, the percentage of trade-certified women in all trades has increased over the past decade. However, less than 4% of them work in the trades, such as construction, electricity, etc.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

We will begin the questions now, starting with Madame Zarac.

The question-and-answer period, as I'm sure you're all familiar with by now, is seven minutes long, but it includes questions and answers, not just questions.

Madame Zarac.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I had trouble following what the Statistics Canada official was saying because the document I had did not match up with what the gentleman was saying. In fact, I do not have the statistics on page 12. However, I do have the document in English.

Are there statistics available on the number of women choosing to enter non-traditional occupations? What percentage of women stays in those occupations? Do you have statistics on the number of women leaving them?

[Christel Le Petit]

That is an excellent question. Unfortunately, our figures do not enable us to do a longitudinal follow-up of those people to see to what extent they are remaining in those jobs.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Would you like to try to track those figures? Have you started to do so? I think that it would be important in determining which sectors should benefit from training.

[Christel Le Petit]

We cannot do it in the short term, but in the intermediate term, it would certainly be very interesting.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Thank you.

People have talked about a symposium scheduled for March 2010 being organized by the construction industry. They have also talked about a study. Has it already been completed?

[Éric Parisien, Director, Sector Council Program, Department of Human Resources and Social Development Canada]

The study is ongoing. It will be completed shortly by the Construction Sector Council. Although a number of other studies have been done in the past, what is interesting about this one is that it is being done by the industry itself. So we are talking about people in construction, construction site owners and construction unions. They are extremely interested in understanding why women are not choosing to work in the construction trades and especially why they do not stay there.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

So you already have statistics on the women who do not stay.

[Éric Parisien]

The Construction Sector Council is starting to keep statistics. In March, it will validate them all with the industry.

Studies have already been done with women's consultation groups in the construction industry. We also talked extensively with construction companies. We realize that large companies no longer have the means to do things in this area, and the small companies even less so.

That said, the industry is obviously interested in these phenomena, essentially out of economic need. We know that the aging of workers in the trades is of serious concern to the construction industry. Its leaders must continually try to find new sources of talent in non-traditional sectors. So they are extremely interested in newcomers. They are also very interested in older workers, meaning they are wondering how to keep their older workers in the industry.

The same is being done in mining too. We are also interested in seeing how we can recruit and especially retain women in those trades.

The symposium in March will principally try to create consensus within the industry, meaning both employers and unions.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

I followed that. For mechanical or electrical construction work, the increase in percentage is extremely low.

[Éric Parisien]

Yes.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

I imagine that the symposium will try to counter that.

The committee has already looked at the fact that training currently being offered may not be tailored to women. If fewer women are working in this area, fewer women can benefit from the training currently being provided by the government under the employment insurance program.

Madam Chair, once the study has been completed, could we have a copy? It could be interesting.

Thank you.

Now,

my next question would be for Mr. Green.

You've mentioned that the federal government, in partnership with the provinces and territories, continues to work to remove barriers for women who want to participate in the labour market and ensure that they are treated equally. Since these are two different objectives, could you explain to me how you remove barriers and how you ensure that women are treated equally?

[Martin Green]

I'm not an expert on it, but there's the Employment Equity Act, on which I understand there was a motion in the House earlier this year that it would be referred to a committee for study and that there has been agreement that one of the standing committees would look at it. So through the Employment Equity Act we certainly attempt to ensure there's a level playing field, if you like.

In terms of removing barriers, we have a sort of suite of programs that we try to address. The sector council program that Éric heads is looking at a number of the barriers that exist, be they workplace practices, discrimination, hiring practices, or whether the training is open to women. Those are things we look at and we try to react to.

The foreign credential recognition program obviously works on barriers to women who hold foreign credentials.

So there's a range of programs we bring to bear on that.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

When you say programs—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have one minute left.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

When you say programs that are trying to take down the barriers, what are those programs?