Evidence of meeting #35 for Status of Women in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was work.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Patty Ducharme  National Executive Vice-President, Executive Office, Public Service Alliance of Canada
Hiromi Matsui  Past President, Canadian Coalition of Women in Engineering, Science, Trades and Technology
Allison Pilon  Human Rights and Employment Equity Officer, Membership Programs Branch, Public Service Alliance of Canada

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

I call this meeting to order.

We are dealing today, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), with a study on increasing the participation of women in non-traditional occupations.

Today as witnesses we have the Public Service Alliance of Canada, with Patty Ducharme, national executive vice-president, executive office; and Allison Pilon, human rights and employment. We also have the Canadian Coalition of Women in Engineering, Science, Trades and Technology, Hiromi Matsui. I want to thank you for coming and welcome you.

By now, Ms. Ducharme, you should know the rules extremely well: ten minutes for presentation, and then we will have a question and answer period. So, Patty, will you be presenting, or will you share your time?

3:35 p.m.

Patty Ducharme National Executive Vice-President, Executive Office, Public Service Alliance of Canada

I will be presenting.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Good. Thank you. So the floor is for Ms. Ducharme.

3:35 p.m.

National Executive Vice-President, Executive Office, Public Service Alliance of Canada

Patty Ducharme

Thank you.

Thank you, honourable members of the committee, for inviting us to come today. I am joined by Allison Pilon, who is a colleague who works in our programs section as one of our employment equity officers at the PSAC.

As most of you know, the PSAC represents approximately 175,000 workers who work everywhere across Canada. Our members work in federal departments and agencies, museums, airports, and in the para-public and private sectors. Approximately 62% of our members are women, and our members, men and women, work in a host of different types of work, everything from clerical and administrative work to technical, trades, science, and so on.

The PSAC has been engaged in the struggle for economic and social justice for our members and all workers for many years. Pay equity, in our opinion, is essential to the full equality of women in our society and ensures that female-dominated jobs, which have historically been undervalued, are paid equally with male-dominated work of equal value. Another essential piece of the struggle for women's economic and social equality is ensuring that women have access to areas of employment outside of what are seen as traditional female jobs, to have the ability to explore their skills and talents, and to overcome the gender segregation still embedded in the labour market.

The labour market in Canada is in many ways segregated along gender lines. Although women make up about half the workforce in Canada, they are more likely than men to work part-time or in other forms of precarious work. About 40% of working women are in part-time, contract, or other non-standard work arrangements, compared with fewer than 30% of men. Of those women who do work part-time, the majority do so out of necessity. Only 28% of women who work part-time choose to do so out of personal preference. Most have to do so because they cannot find full-time work, because they are in school, or are caring for their children or aging parents and don't have access to adequate child care or family services.

The situation is more pronounced for racialized and immigrant women, aboriginal women, and women with disabilities. Racialized women are more likely to be working in the low-wage service sector and in part-time work. Many immigrant women are underemployed and are unable to work in the field in which they were trained and they are also more likely to work part-time. Aboriginal women have among the highest unemployment rate in Canada and are employed mainly in lower-paying service sector jobs. Women with disabilities are often unemployed or underemployed because so many workplaces remain inaccessible. More than two-thirds of women work in occupations traditionally held by women, such as nursing, teaching, clerical, and sales positions, and although women have made significant gains over the past few decades, in many areas we are still largely excluded from blue-collar jobs, skilled trades, and professions such as sciences and engineering. As of 2006, women represented only 21% of those employed in primary occupations, 6.5% of those employed in trades, transport, and construction, and only 31% of those in processing, manufacturing, and utilities.

Turning to the federal public service, where most of our members work, a number of jobs and occupational categories remain male-dominated. For example, as of March 31, 2008, women represented only 20% of workers in the operational category. These are jobs such as trades, ships' crews, firefighters, and other services. The technical category is also male-dominated, with only 32.5% female representation. This category includes such jobs as engineering and scientific support, technical inspection, and products inspection.

When one looks at how the figures have changed over the past decade or so, there is not a lot to celebrate. That is because although the overall proportion of women in the technical and operational categories has increased, this has not been the result of a significant boost in the hiring of women; rather, it is largely due to a higher rate of attrition for male workers.

Why do we continue to see such a gender gap persist for many jobs?

Women have less access to certain types of education and training. For example, although women represent more than half of all university graduates, the number of women taking engineering and natural sciences has barely increased in almost 20 years. Women certainly do not have access to and are not encouraged to train in the skilled construction trades. Further, fewer women than men have access to employment insurance and therefore cannot access the retraining moneys available under that program. Even when they are on the job, women experience a gender training barrier. Women are less likely to receive employer-sponsored training than men, according to a recent study by Statistics Canada.

Another important barrier to women's access to many job markets is the lack of support for child care and elder care, the unwillingness for employers to provide flexible working hours or other such arrangements, and the fact that women are often penalized for taking extended leaves of absence for child or family care. The view that some jobs, particularly senior managerial positions, skilled manufacturing jobs, or other male-dominated professions, are unsuited to flexible and part-time work arrangements or job-sharing reinforces this gender gap.

For racialized women, immigrant women, aboriginal women, and women with disabilities the barriers to full participation in the labour market are larger and run much deeper. Discrimination and marginalization, lack of access to training and education, lack of recognition of foreign credentials, and lack of accommodation and accessible workplaces all contribute to further labour-market segregation.

Of course, sex discrimination and stereotypical views of women are still prevalent. A sexist culture and harassment in workplaces and in schools still persist and result in many women leaving, even after they've tried to break into non-traditional areas. There must be assurances that when women enter these sectors, harassment and bullying is not tolerated, and workplace cultures ultimately must change.

In the federal public service, approximately one in three women report having been the victim of harassment, and 55% of women reported having been the victim of discrimination on the basis of sex. Unfortunately, the Treasury Board does not provide the breakdown of these numbers by occupational category. This is information we have asked for and have been denied.

There are a number of ways in which these barriers to women's full and equal participation in the labour market can be addressed.

Employment equity legislation must be strengthened. Employment equity policies and programs that specifically focus on bringing women into non-traditional sectors and jobs must be introduced, and they must also ensure that racialized and aboriginal women and women with disabilities have access to these jobs.

Infrastructure moneys should be tied to employment equity requirements. Since most of the infrastructure moneys flow into the creation of traditionally male-dominated jobs with no incentive or obligation for contractors or employers to recruit more women into these jobs, it means that women have been largely shut out of the benefits of these investments.

Prevention of sexual and racial harassment in the workplace is a key component of ensuring women's access to non-traditional areas of employment. There must be proactive obligations for employers to make the workplace welcome to women and to prevent harassment.

The 2006 Harry Arthurs report on employment standards in the federal public sector made some important recommendations that if implemented would mean an improvement for women working in the federal sector. Examples include improvements to family responsibility and parental leaves, protections for nursing mothers, and provisions with respect to training.

Other important measures include better employment standards, retraining funds to allow women to be trained in non-traditional areas of education or skills, improved access to employer-sponsored training, and the promotion of more flexible work arrangements in virtually all types of work.

Finally, to ensure that more women enter areas of non-traditional employment, basic supports are needed. A national child care program and an improved employment insurance program are vital components for ensuring women's full participation in the workforce. Pay equity is also a fundamentally important right for women's social and economic equality.

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you very much, Ms. Ducharme.

You've been here too often--you're bang on time. You've even given us two minutes extra. There we go.

Now we'll go to Ms. Matsui.

3:45 p.m.

Hiromi Matsui Past President, Canadian Coalition of Women in Engineering, Science, Trades and Technology

Thank you.

Good afternoon, Madam Chair and committee members.

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you about increasing the participation of women in non-traditional occupations.

My name is Hiromi Matsui and I'm a past president of CCWESTT, the Canadian Coalition of Women in Engineering, Science, Trades and Technology. I work out of the IRMACS Centre, which is an interdisciplinary mathematics research centre at Simon Fraser University in Burnaby, British Columbia.

CCWESTT is a pan-Canadian umbrella organization with 27 member organizations, from SCWIST, the Society for Canadian Women in Science and Technology, in Vancouver, British Columbia, to WISE in Saint John's, Newfoundland. CCWESTT holds biannual national conferences for women in SETT—that's science, engineering, trades, and technology. The next conference will be held in Winnipeg, Manitoba, in May 2010.

CCWESTT member organizations promote women-in-SETT through recruitment and retention activities, in the form of workshops, hands-on activities, and talks with role models. We have a website, www.ccwestt.org, which contains a wealth of statistics, reports, and information. I invite you to go there to share what is going on in Canada.

CCWESTT encourages young women to consider careers in non-traditional occupations. This is an important topic that covers a wide range of occupations, from engineering professionals to women working in skilled trades. These women face many similar challenges and barriers as they try to advance their careers. The lack of role models in leadership positions is a critical factor.

One of the most exciting conferences I attended was a women in trades conference in Vancouver organized by Kate Braid. To see a room full of skilled female tradespeople, from carpenters to millwrights to welders, strong women both physically and mentally who've dealt with challenges and harassment in the workplace and survived, is an uplifting experience.

Yesterday I talked with a young millwright in Saskatchewan who is the only female in her company. The company uses her as a poster child, but she has to do double the normal amount of work to prove herself and admits it is difficult. When she first started working at the company, she would ask her supervisor questions about procedures and what she should do and he responded with grunts and other strong communication noises. She started calling him “Caveman Joe”. Fortunately, her sense of humour helped her cope and survive.

The reality is that many companies in trades do not want to hire women. They view diversity as a problem, which is why we've developed a checklist of strategies to work with companies to help them cope with training challenges—we're working on the French version of that checklist; I'm sorry we don't have it ready yet.

CCWESTT has developed a centre in Edmonton, called the WinSETT Centre, to partner with industry to deliver women-in-SETT leadership programs. We've already run career awareness workshops for aboriginal and immigrant women and we plan for more in the future.

A great deal of work has been done to encourage women in non-traditional occupations, but you know the gender pay gap still exists in Canada, especially for women with post-secondary training getting 68¢ to the dollar that men get. We need to communicate to employers and policy-makers the business case for diversity.

Diversity policies can result in increased innovation potential. Employers can access a broader base of talent. They can have stronger financial performance.

In 2002, Richard Bernardi found a clear link between companies with female directors on boards and those on Fortune 100's best companies list. In its research, Catalyst found that companies with the highest representation of women directors outperformed those with the lowest representation.

Diversity policies can result in enhanced market development. Women influence 80% of consumer purchase decisions. Many of you know that the number of women entrepreneurs has increased dramatically between 1981 and 2001, over 200% compared to a 38% increase by men. You have to remember this increase also includes women engineers, and it includes skilled tradespeople.

At work I've met a woman who has set up her own caulking company because she has found a niche in trades that fits her strengths and what she wants in her work. She specializes in industrial caulking and she does very well.

Julita Vassileva is the NSERC chair for the prairie region for women in science and engineering, and she points out that “Research must be carried out to develop an enhanced understanding of gender issues”. She says:

Promoting women does not mean treating them in the same way as men. Men’s characteristics, situations and needs are often taken as the norm, and--to have the same opportunities--women are expected to behave like them. Ensuring gender equality means giving equal consideration to the life patterns, needs and interests of both women and men.

I'm here today because I have a dream of a Canada where equal opportunities will exist for all women and men. My dream is inspired by my grandmother, who came to Canada as an immigrant. She and my grandfather built a cabin in Marpole. They were very poor. The children were hired out to families as house help when they were eleven years old.

My grandmother had a dream for her children, a dream of opportunity. I have a dream of a Canada where young people, particularly young women, will be encouraged to study mathematics and physics by counsellors and teachers, not discouraged. I still hear this every day.

My own experience in an Ontario high school was having my principal advise me not to become a teacher because he said I'd have difficulty finding a job because of my racial background. My mother worked as a housekeeper but took courses and got a secretarial job in a hospital. I thought about teaching, but ended up studying at the London School of Economics and worked on the contribution that working women make to the economy. Having come from a strong line of working women, I saw that they did a lot and contributed to the economy and I wanted to do research in that area.

Simon Fraser University supported me in working on diversity in the faculty of applied sciences, and if you think that's a common thing, you're not right. I was fortunate to work with two deans who supported my work in diversity with both faculty and student groups in computing and engineering science. We now have several female faculties in engineering science, where previously we had one female faculty.

My grandmother gave me a dream and a gene pool with a lot of determination and strength. We have the business case, we have the data, we have the case studies, but there are still many challenges to move forward. But I say to you, yes, we can.

Merci.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you very much.

That was a very moving tribute and a reality of what you have had to face. It is sad that after three generations women are still facing some of those challenges.

We're going to move into questions and answers. The first part is a seven-minute question and answer session, and the seven minutes include the question and the answer. So I would ask everyone to try to be as succinct as they can.

Anita.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all of you for coming.

Ms. Matsui, we met for the first time when you came as part of a round table when this committee was established for the first time and we were trying to assess the needs of Canadian women. If I remember correctly--and I may not--I seem to recall your talking about your dream at that time as well.

3:50 p.m.

Past President, Canadian Coalition of Women in Engineering, Science, Trades and Technology

Hiromi Matsui

I dream a lot.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

Well, those who work with you are lucky.

Can you identify for us--well, you have somewhat already--the progress that has been made and articulate clearly where progress has not been made? Where it has been made, you identified the issue of women directors of boards having a profound influence on hiring and training of women. What else makes a difference?

3:55 p.m.

Past President, Canadian Coalition of Women in Engineering, Science, Trades and Technology

Hiromi Matsui

I wish I had something we could celebrate, but I have to be frank and say that when you look at data, which we all look at, the enrollment numbers of women in engineering are not increasing.

What makes a difference is having female deans of engineering. We now have several female deans of engineering. Elizabeth Cannon in Alberta was one of the first. We now have a female dean at UBC. We have a female dean in Toronto. These women are in positions of leadership and will make a difference, because deans have not a lot of power but they have enough power to influence things like hiring committees.

But organizations like CAF, and unions, which are pressing for greater equality, make a difference because they actually have some employers led by women and men who will listen and invite their managers and employees to work with them.

After working many years in the field, I have to say that when I was young and feisty I was angry a lot. I still get angry a lot, but I realize now.... Someone said that you have to work with the willing. And I think there are many people out there, both women and men, who are willing to listen. I worked for many years with the Association of Professional Engineers and Geoscientists of B.C., and when I first walked into this room and saw all these middle-aged men in suits, I wondered what I had gotten myself into. That experience of working with those people developed some profound friendships for me, where we learned and listened on both sides.

Professional organizations like Engineers Canada and the provincial engineering associations can make a difference, because they can provide the leadership profile of encouraging their members to become aware and to become educated on the kinds of policies and practices that are barring and keeping women out. It's not only recruiting. You all know the retention issue is a huge one. We're training lots of women in science, but Canada is doing a very poor job of retaining them. And the obvious reason is that women get married, they have families, and there's no day care. You know, this isn't rocket science.

I think leadership is a key component, and nurturing women leaders. There are some industry leaders who realize that retaining women is a real competitive advantage. IBM is one company that is doing an excellent job. Johnson & Johnson are doing it. And as more multinationals realize it--once we recover from the recession--I think there is hope there.

But the impact of the cultural forces that are causing our young people and our teachers and counsellors to think in very narrow terms, in terms of nursing and teaching and medicine as career choices, is profound.

I have recently been looking at the online games targeted at pre-school children. The whole Disney machine, which is a very powerful one, is encouraging creativity and all the artistic design and so on. But there are positive things happening. Let me tell you, at Simon Fraser University we have a new campus in Surrey. At Surrey, one of our newest schools is called the School of Interactive Arts and Technology. That school is combining design and technology studies and they're attracting both women and men students, because women are interested in the design of a cell phone, in the design of an interface, as well as learning something about the technology. So interdisciplinarity is a huge area.

It's such a complex issue, as you yourself know.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

Seven minutes.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

And you only have one and a half left.

4 p.m.

Past President, Canadian Coalition of Women in Engineering, Science, Trades and Technology

Hiromi Matsui

I wish I could give you some really good answers. But I think leadership is vital and I think we need leadership at the provincial and at the national level.

I wish I had a clear, simple answer, Anita.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

Thank you.

May I have a little bit more time?

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

You have a minute and 15 seconds.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

I have a quick question to the Public Service Alliance. You talked about the Employment Equity Act and the lack of rigour used in employing it. If you had to prioritize one or two or three major issues in terms of employment equity, both with the federal government and federal government contractors, what would you identify?

4 p.m.

Allison Pilon Human Rights and Employment Equity Officer, Membership Programs Branch, Public Service Alliance of Canada

There are a number of concerns we have about the effectiveness of the current legislation, and obviously we're preparing for a review of the act at some point.

One of the impacts on this area of women in non-traditional jobs is that employment equity plans have to look at the external labour market and reflect that external labour market. But they do that by occupation. If you don't have a high representation of women externally in the labour market, the employer who is looking at how to set goals for the hiring of women, for example, won't have to set very high goals. It doesn't encourage breaking into non-traditional areas. That's certainly one area. There's a whole number of other recommendations we have that we probably don't have time to get into here.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

You've gone 23 seconds over.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

I don't have time, and 23 seconds won't do it.

If you have them readily available, it would be very helpful if you could send them to the clerk or the researcher.

Thank you.

4 p.m.

Human Rights and Employment Equity Officer, Membership Programs Branch, Public Service Alliance of Canada

4 p.m.

National Executive Vice-President, Executive Office, Public Service Alliance of Canada

Patty Ducharme

One thing, just very quickly, would be the recommendations of the Perinbam report that were never implemented.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

That was a long time ago.

4 p.m.

National Executive Vice-President, Executive Office, Public Service Alliance of Canada

Patty Ducharme

Yes, and we would like to see those recommendations implemented with a higher percentage of equity group members in the workplace that is reflective of the availability of racialized workers, aboriginal workers, and workers with disabilities.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

Thank you.