Evidence of meeting #36 for Status of Women in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was plan.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Dan Braniff  Chair, Georgian Bay Chapters, Canadian Association of Retired Persons
Judy Cameron  Managing Director, Private Pension Plans Division, Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions Canada
Barbara Byers  Executive Vice-President, Canadian Labour Congress
Bernard Dussault  Senior Research and Communications Officer, National Office, Federal Superannuates National Association
Joel Harden  National Representative, Social Economic Policy, Canadian Labour Congress

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

I think we should begin. We have a quorum.

I want to welcome the witnesses and thank them for coming.

We are studying pensions, both private and public, and unpaid work. We hope you can give us some ideas, elucidate some of the information you have, and help us with looking at public policy on this issue.

Each group will be given 10 minutes. We have you down as four groups: the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions Canada; the Canadian Labour Congress; the Canadian Association of Retired Persons; and the Federal Superannuates National Association.

If you think we shouldn't divide you into four groups and you would like to work this differently, let me know now because we give each group 10 minutes. At the end of 10 minutes we open it up to rounds of questions. There's a total presentation time of 40 minutes, so if any of you wish to share your time you can let me know.

Monsieur Dussault and Mr. Braniff, do you want to share your time or are you fine? Do you want to go with 10 minutes each?

3:35 p.m.

Dan Braniff Chair, Georgian Bay Chapters, Canadian Association of Retired Persons

We'll share.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

All right, so that will be 30 minutes. That will give us more time for questions and answers.

We shall begin with the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions.

Ms. Cameron, welcome.

3:35 p.m.

Judy Cameron Managing Director, Private Pension Plans Division, Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions Canada

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

Thank you for inviting me here today.

My name is Judy Cameron, Managing Director of the Private Pension Plans Division of the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions (OSFI). OSFI is tasked with implementing the laws and regulations put in place by Canada’s Parliament. Our regulatory mandate includes banks, insurance companies and federally regulated private pension plans. We regulate and supervise about 7% of all private pension plans in Canada, representing about 12% of total pension assets.

Today I will briefly outline some of OSFI’s perspectives on the current state of the pension industry and our expectations of plan administrators.

Everyone is aware of the financial and economic turmoil of the past two years. We have seen sharp declines in stock markets globally while at the same time long-term interest rates have remained close to their historical lows. These developments have produced a double hit to defined benefit pension plans, as the value of pension assets and liabilities fluctuate with changing financial and economic conditions. The impact of this is reflected in OSFI's solvency testing results.

As you may know, pension regulations do not require defined benefit pension plans to be fully funded at all times, but where the ratio of assets to liabilities on a solvency or liquidation basis is less than one, the plan must make payments to address the deficiency. The provinces and many other jurisdictions have similar rules.

OSFI requires underfunded pension plans to file an annual valuation report. In addition, we estimate solvency ratios for federal pension plans every six months to provide a snapshot of the financial health of the defined benefit pension plans we regulate. Our most recent solvency testing results show that the average estimated solvency ratio, or ESR, of federal plans as of June 2009 is 88%. That is to say, on average, the market value of pension plan assets would be sufficient to cover 88% of promised benefits.

The estimated solvency ratio of 88% for June 2009 represents a modest improvement from the December 2008 figure of 85%. So while the situation has improved somewhat, the degree of underfunding remains significant. The solvency testing results also suggest that pension plan sponsors will continue to face funding challenges in the current economic environment and that plan sponsors and administrators must continue to be vigilant.

OSFI's primary objective in running solvency tests is to detect problems and challenges early on so that we can, working together with pension plans, take steps to safeguard members' benefits.

Solvency testing is a key element of OSFI's enhanced monitoring of federal pension plans. We will continue to identify underfunded pension plans and take action ranging from encouraging plan sponsors to cease contribution holidays to requiring enhanced notification to members or requesting early valuation reports.

OSFI has a risk-based approach to supervising pension plans, tailoring our activities to the risk profile of our plans. Over the past 18 months we have put particular focus on plans that have been most challenged by market conditions.

Regulation alone cannot improve the environment for pensions. Effective plan governance is also critically important to controlling risks. A key focus of OSFI's supervision is therefore an assessment of the quality of pension plan governance.

OSFI continues to remind plan administrators to be prepared for a wide range of potential shocks or adverse events and to use regular scenario testing as a risk management tool. We believe regular scenario testing will help plan administrators understand the risks they face. We also encourage plans to develop funding policies, as this is one way to be clear about the level of risk they are comfortable with.

Governance is not one-size-fits-all. More complex benefit structures or more sophisticated investment products and strategies will require more sophisticated governance procedures and more time and effort to assess and monitor risks.

OSFI recognizes that Canadians are concerned about the health of their pension plans. It is important that governments, regulators, and pension plan administrators work together to meet the challenges facing private pension plans.

Thank you, and I would be happy to answer any questions the committee might have.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you, Ms. Cameron. That was four minutes. Excellent.

Now I'll move on to the Canadian Labour Congress.

3:40 p.m.

Barbara Byers Executive Vice-President, Canadian Labour Congress

Thank you. You've certainly set the bar for all of us.

Thank you very much for the invitation to be here.

We've handed out two documents. I'll be referring mostly to the single page, but you also have a more detailed document beside it.

With me is Joel Harden, who works in our social and economic policy department. He will be able to answer a number of technical questions that you may have for us.

Having appeared before this committee on other issues, it's not any surprise that women continue to be at a significant disadvantage compared to men when it comes to income, and obviously that means to pensions. If you're working at a smaller income your whole life, you're going to end up with a smaller pension. We still earn less than men—about 70.5 cents on the dollar—and as you know, that gets worse if you are an aboriginal woman, a woman of colour, or a woman with a disability. We also end up shouldering the unpaid caregiving responsibilities. We are concentrated in non-standard, poorly paid jobs that offer little hope for a decent pension.

The issue sheet you have in front of you, which is part of our retirement security program, offers both the good and the bad news about women and pensions. It starts to explain why we think our campaign can deliver the change women deserve.

The good news is that we've made some pension gains in recent decades. This is particularly true of women in the public sector and women retirees accessing public pensions. The number of women in workplace pension plans tripled from 1974 to 2004. Almost all the increase in workplace pension plan membership came from women joining unions and gaining decent pensions.

We've also fought for better pension legislation. We won part-time worker access to workplace pensions and better pension vesting rights. We won fair Canada Pension Plan rules for those who stopped work to help raise children. We won a battle to index CPP and old age security benefits to inflation so that the value of public pensions would hold steady over the course of one's working life.

These victories are reasons why fewer retirees—not every retiree, but fewer—today live in poverty. In 1980, the retiree poverty rate was twice the rate of the working-age population. By 2004, retiree poverty was half the rate of the working-age population. That means that there are a lot of people who are close or barely over. I don't think we should be saying to people who work their whole lives that what we're aiming for here, folks, is that you can live close to the poverty line. I think we should be looking for something that has a little more dignity to it.

The bad news is that, despite the positive developments, there is still a major gap in pension income between men and women. Between 1991 and 2001, for example, retired women still earned 60% in pension income relative to retired men. By 2004, 7.3% of retired women still lived in poverty, which was more than double the rate of retired men. That gets even worse when you look at single, divorced, widowed--known as unattached--elderly women. A 2004 study found that an astounding 45.6% of women in these circumstances still lived in poverty.

There are lots of things to explain it. We've talked before with this committee about the question of equal pay for work of equal value. We've talked about the need for women to have full-time, full-year jobs and that they want that. We've talked about the need for women to have pension plans that actually address their needs.

We have a statistic here that the majority of working-age women are on the job and comprise 46% of the Canadian labour market. We think that number is probably going to need to be adjusted just because of the changes we've seen. But we should be very clear that when you look at those numbers, it doesn't mean that all those women are in full-time, full-year, good jobs.

While the expectations on working women have changed, caregiving expectations have not. Women still shoulder, as we said, the bulk of unpaid caregiving work of children and seniors. In 2002 over two million Canadians offered personal care for seniors; three-quarters of those people were women.

So in the absence of affordable child care and dependant and elder care, women have been put in very stressful and frustrating circumstances. I have already pointed out the dominant role we have in low-paid, low-quality, precarious work. Indeed, 40% of women work in these kinds of jobs and they really don't get much, if any, pension. A lot of women—over 60%—don't have access to a workplace pension.

If I can just stop there for a moment to say that when you look at our longer document, you'll see on page 4 that we have some key demands about doubling the benefits for the Canadian Pension Plan; increasing the low-income pensions, the GIS, by 15%, so that no senior lives in poverty; and also protecting Canadian pensions through a federal system of pension insurance.

If we're going to raise up all women and men, we think the way to do it is to actually do something about the Canada Pension Plan again—and the Quebec Pension Plan, obviously. This the fairest way. It's a transferable plan, so it doesn't matter where you work or which province or territory you're in. It's fair, it's inflation protected, and it can be generous.

So what we need to be doing here, really, instead of talking to people about RRSPs or private pension plans—through which we have just seen people go through a disaster from the fall in the markets—is we should be saying, our responsibility as Canadians is to create a Canada Pension Plan that works for all seniors.

I'll leave it at that, unless Joel wants to add anything. But we'll get into some of that in the questions.

I don't think I met my time limit, but....

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

You did very well, at seven minutes.

3:45 p.m.

Executive Vice-President, Canadian Labour Congress

Barbara Byers

There you go. There's lots of time for questions. C'est bien.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Mr. Braniff.

3:45 p.m.

Chair, Georgian Bay Chapters, Canadian Association of Retired Persons

Dan Braniff

Thank you for inviting me to represent CARP.

Just to clarify Mr. Dussault's position, he is here as our assistant. He's our expert, and I'll describe him a little bit more to you as we go along.

I'm Dan Braniff. I'm an unpaid volunteer and chair of the Georgian Bay chapter of CARP. I also serve on CARP's advisory board, which has recently been created to advise the executive director, Moses Znaimer, who is running CARP these days.

CARP represents a new vision of aging for ages 45-plus. It has 350,000 members across Canada.

I wear two hats. I'm also the founder and organizer of the Common Front for Retirement Security. The common front evolved from the Common Front for Pension Splitting. It consists of 21 member groups, with a collective membership of two million. You have a handout showing the groups we represent, three of which are women's groups, who have stuck with us through all of this time. They deal primarily with women's issues. Others are a cross-section of pensioner groups, retired military and civil servant pensioners, and age-related organizations like CARP and the Royal Canadian Legion, which is the largest group we have. You'll notice that the FSNA is part of our common front; hence, we have at our command or advantage Mr. Dussault.

My involvement with pension issues started with the Confederation Life Insurance Company wind-up in the mid-nineties, when I served as the founding president of the Bell Pensioners' Group, the BPG. It was by default the representative of all policyholders at that time. We therefore played a major role in representing all policyholders with the liquidator and the court. The BPG, the Bell Pensioners' Group, helped win a precedent-setting wind-up priority for all policyholders, including the pension plans, and 100% was gained from our arguments with Bell Canada regarding their supplementary pension plan. I'll relate this to what we're trying to do today.

I last appeared before this committee in March 2007 on the issue of the economic security of women. Not much is different today, except we're looking at pensions specifically. On pension splitting, we had some discussions about how that might serve women, and I suppose there are still some questions about that. Pension splitting was subsequently passed into law on June 22 of the same year.

Women's pension security is clearly underrepresented. In looking at the blues of the StatsCan visit here, I notice their witnesses failed to answer many of the questions that pretty obviously need answers for you people to do your work. I think that indicates the lack of priority on where women stand, which really puts us in a very important position here at this table.

Statistics show that progress has been made. I think the CLC has pointed this out in their statistics, and we agree with everything the CLC witness said with respect to the background of this, but much is needed to achieve real fairness for women.

The problems are that women live longer, earn less, have lower retirement savings and pensions, and spend more years alone. They have greater responsibility for caregiving and suffer more in poverty. We all seem to agree on that.

CARP and the Common Front for Retirement Security insist, number one, that the Canada Pension Plan Act must be reformed and updated. Corporate Canada has exposed private pensions to unprecedented deficiencies, and it has incorrectly blamed these on the economy.

Private defined pension plans have little contingency protection, and they should have the type of protection that insurance companies provide their policyholders.

The wind-up priority has been described as many things. I think it should be looked at separately from the corporate idea of wind-up or bankruptcy. We have some suggestions in that respect.

We believe a “made in Canada” universal pension plan is long overdue. We hear the CLC speak to that as well.

My colleague, Mr. Bernard Dussault, the former chief actuary of the CPP, who had his hand in the creation of the plan as we see it today, is at your disposal to answer any questions you may have.

Women-oriented remedies should be adopted. As the CLC mentioned, we should increase the GIS allowance; we should update the rules for the pension survivor option; and we should look at the mandatory RRIF withdrawals. As you know, there's a common mandatory age for men and women to make RRIF withdrawals, in spite of the fact that women live five years longer. And Canadian pensioners on RRIF have to withdraw at almost twice the rate of their U.S. counterparts. That doesn't seem fair, especially for a gender group who's living longer.

The pension situation is urgent. The financial crisis has maybe given us one little gift, in that it's exposed the deficiencies and cracks in the present system.

Now, we have millions of baby boomers who will start emerging as seniors, starting in two years' time, in 2011. So we don't have much time to really prepare for the future.

I see in the media reports over the weekend and this morning that there's some action being proposed by the federal government under a task force led by Ted Menzies. We welcome that. We still don't understand it completely, but we hope it isn't the final answer to this particular problem.

We can shout fairly loudly that we need a pension summit. Pensioners, including women's champions, must be at the table.

Thank you very much.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Mr. Dussault.

3:55 p.m.

Bernard Dussault Senior Research and Communications Officer, National Office, Federal Superannuates National Association

I have nothing to add.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

You have nothing to add? You were the author of some of this.

3:55 p.m.

Senior Research and Communications Officer, National Office, Federal Superannuates National Association

Bernard Dussault

Well, if you have questions, I'll be pleased to answer them.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

All right, thank you.

Thank you very much. Everyone came in nicely under time.

The first round of questioning is a round of seven minutes per person, but it includes questions and answers. What we would like to do is get in as many questions in each seven-minute round as we can.

Ms. Neville.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

Thank you.

I just have a couple of quick questions for clarification from the CLC.

At the bottom of your one-pager you talk about 7.3% of retired women still living in poverty. I'm assuming you're talking about people who have been in the workforce. Is that correct?

3:55 p.m.

Joel Harden National Representative, Social Economic Policy, Canadian Labour Congress

The figure you're referencing there does in fact refer to all retired women. Where you see the jump-up figure on that following page, we're talking about women living on their own over the age of 74—though that is not specified in the text. For popular documents like this, we often have to cut down on the verbiage.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

And do you mean in that 45.6% that it could include people who have never been in the workforce as well?

3:55 p.m.

National Representative, Social Economic Policy, Canadian Labour Congress

Joel Harden

Absolutely. Predominantly.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

Okay. I just needed clarity on that.

I guess I have two questions, one for the CLC and one for Mr. Dussault—or anybody can answer them.

What I am interested in is your views on extending the Canada Pension Plan to self-employed workers. We know that a significant number of women are small business owners or entrepreneurs. Have you given any thought or study to that issue? I'm interested in your comments on that.

Mr. Dussault, I'd be interested in your comments on that as well. I guess what I would ask you is if you were recrafting the Canada Pension Plan today, would you recraft it differently to be more sensitive to the differing needs of women?

3:55 p.m.

Senior Research and Communications Officer, National Office, Federal Superannuates National Association

Bernard Dussault

I'll answer the first question you asked about the self-employed. You asked me if I have given thought to that, and the answer is no. The reason is that the self-employed are already covered by the Canada Pension Plan. There's an exception. The Canada Pension Plan covers employment earnings. I know there are some self-employed who, rather than declaring salary to themselves, take shares, whatever, but it's only employment earnings that are covered. That's perhaps one aspect that might need to be covered.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

The information I have is there are many who are working out of their homes, on their own, who are not covered by it. It's that cohort I'm looking at.

3:55 p.m.

Senior Research and Communications Officer, National Office, Federal Superannuates National Association

Bernard Dussault

If they're not covered, it's because they don't pay themselves a salary or they don't receive a salary. All salaries are covered by the Canada Pension Plan.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Neville Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

Okay. All right.

3:55 p.m.

Senior Research and Communications Officer, National Office, Federal Superannuates National Association

Bernard Dussault

Now, your second question?