Evidence of meeting #24 for Status of Women in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was communities.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Pamela Shauk  Outreach Worker, Native Friendship Centre of Montreal Inc.
Carrie Martin  Evaluation Coordinator, Native Women's Shelter of Montreal
Nakuset  Executive Director, Native Women's Shelter of Montreal
Carole Brazeau  Justice and Public Security Coordinator, Quebec Native Women Inc.
France Robertson  Coordinator for the women's shelter and non-violence file, Quebec Native Women Inc.
Ellen Gabriel  President, Quebec Native Women Inc.
Béatrice Vaugrante  Executive Director, Canada francophone Section, Amnesty International
Karine Gentelet  Coordinator of aboriginal rights, Canadian Francophone Section, Amnesty International
Émilie-Cloé Laliberté  General Coordinator, Stella
Isabelle Dumas  Procedural Clerk
Julie Cool  Committee Researcher
Laura Munn-Rivard  Committee Researcher
Marie-Pierre Bousquet  Associate Professor, Faculty of Anthropology, University of Montreal, As an Individual
Mylène Jaccoud  Full Professor, School of Criminology, Université de Montréal, As an Individual

12:35 p.m.

Coordinator for the women's shelter and non-violence file, Quebec Native Women Inc.

France Robertson

In an ideal world, it would be great to have safe houses for aboriginal people near the communities, but we know that isn't the case today. I don't think that in a potential long-term action plan, it would be possible to have a safe house or an aboriginal resource.

However, since there aren't any in all the communities, the best thing right now would be crisis centres. If you have to drive an hour or two to get to a resource, that's very far. Often the women won't go there, or they'll stay in the community and everyone will know that. It's a matter of confidentiality. There should be crisis centres. That would make it possible to manage the situation, which is a matter of violence, regardless of the form it takes. We can also talk about suicide crisis centres. There should be adapted places of that kind.

A lot of aboriginal women wind up in non-aboriginal safe houses. Those houses are deprived because they don't know how to respond appropriately to these women in distress. I've been told that children often had to act as interpreters for their distressed mothers because they didn't speak English or French. When you're in distress, and you don't speak English or French, you speak your aboriginal language. So the children had to interpret for their mothers. Imagine the problem that caused for those children. They are witnesses, but they're also victims of violence in a way.

These women often come back to the safe house for a bit of respite. One caseworker told me that the process is very long. If you compare a non-aboriginal woman with an aboriginal woman, a non-aboriginal woman will somewhat understand that she is experiencing a violence cycle. So she will question herself and wonder what she'll have to do in order to take charge of her life. For an aboriginal woman, violence is normal; that's the way it is in her community. We also see that the subject is taboo; you must not talk about it. You have to become aware of everything she is going through. There is also the cycle of residential schools and all that. The healing process can taken two years, three years, before she realizes that and wonders what she's going to do with her life. She's going to think of herself because she has always thought about the greater well-being of her family, her children and the community.

During this respite time, she will rest, but she will always go back to her husband. Often it's because she has no choice. You didn't talk about marital property a little earlier. If she left her husband, she would lose everything. She'll lose her house and often she has no job. Most of the women don't work. She won't have a place to stay, and we know the vacancy rate is very low. So this is often a time to start over a little, to take a break. The cycle comes around often. These women often come back to the safe house with their four or five children. There are also very few suitable resources for those children.

Nakuset must have some statistics on the occupancy rate.

12:40 p.m.

Executive Director, Native Women's Shelter of Montreal

Nakuset

I don't know about statistics right now. I just got back from maternity leave, so you're going to have to bear with me. But I did want to address this.

France deals a lot with the shelters that are on reserve, and there are two that are off reserve: one in Quebec City and the one in Montreal. I can't really address what it's like in each community, because I don't know, but I do know that the women who come through Montreal are not always coming because of domestic violence, but sometimes because of homelessness. Sometimes they're coming from across Canada, so sometimes we see, as you said, the revolving door; there are some.

It's always different. It's an interesting point. I remember the first client who came through our door. That was in 1987, almost 25 years ago. We see her on occasion now. It takes a while for people to heal. This is why it's so strange that they would stop the funding for the Aboriginal Healing Foundation, that they would cut the funding so soon, because it takes time—in 25 years, if you haven't healed from, let's say, domestic violence and all the issues that stem from domestic violence, the addictions and all the other issues....

I'm not sure whether I answered your question properly. Is there something else you need to...?

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Lois Brown Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON

Well, could any of you address the issue of skills that are being provided? They were saying that in the shelter in Ottawa there is opportunity for the women to take courses and get some skill sets that are marketable, because many of them want that economic independence.

Ms. Gabriel, you talked about the need for economic independence. They are able to parlay the marketable job skills they are acquiring there into real jobs that are making them real incomes, which make them financially independent. She was talking about some of the women who have taken courses through a number of the community colleges. We are quite proud of the fact that some of the women have come back now to work in the shelter and be mentors for other women who are now the clients of the shelter.

I am wondering if that same thing is happening here and how successful it has been, if it is.

12:40 p.m.

Executive Director, Native Women's Shelter of Montreal

Nakuset

The thing is that when women come to the shelter they are usually coming in crisis, so they're not really looking for skills. They are looking for a debriefing and a way to heal from that particular crisis. Because the woman can stay in the shelter for as little as one night to maybe two months, it's not really the proper place for them to learn skills, because they're just breathing.

But we have an outreach program, and it follows the women once they have left the shelter. This is where we are able to find them the resources to go back to school, to get an education. We have different programming throughout the year to help them, and we have our success stories too of women who went to the outreach program, who got their degrees, and who now work at the shelter. We do find that, but it is through the outreach program, not at the shelter. The shelter is really just for crisis.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Lois Brown Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON

Yours is just crisis management.

12:40 p.m.

Executive Director, Native Women's Shelter of Montreal

Nakuset

Yes, it's going from A to B, and having a career of your choice is maybe Z. Maybe it is X, but it is way down the line.

I strongly believe in the outreach. It's the support services after they've dealt with the crisis.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Lois Brown Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON

How do we make that bridge? I would suggest that in Ontario what we see from the crisis management situation is that this is when the Ontario government kicks in, and there are subsidized housing units or assisted living situations. In Aurora, in my community, there is an apartment dwelling that has been funded in combination with the community, the Province of Ontario, and York Region, so that there is a place.... It's like transitional housing. When the women are in essentially sheltered housing, there is opportunity then for them to receive funding from Community and Social Services, which is the branch of Ontario government that then gives assisted living. But they can get into courses, into educational programming.

Is that part, Ms. Gabriel, of what you're saying needs to happen when multi-levels of government become part of this solution?

June 10th, 2010 / 12:45 p.m.

President, Quebec Native Women Inc.

Ellen Gabriel

That's provided there are no jurisdictional arguments. Quebec Native Women is not a service provider; however, we do have an AHRDA program through the Native Women's Association of Canada through which we provide opportunities for women, say, who have just become hairdressers. We provide the employer to give them hairdressing experience. AHRDA also provides opportunities for women to finish their secondary education, but these are dollars specifically targeted for urban aboriginal women. I couldn't access it if I were in a crisis situation because I was on a reserve. There are gaps.

Education is very much needed. We have a project through the AHRDA or the agency—the ACCESS project—that helps the single-parent aboriginal women to learn how to write a résumé and get some job experience. This is one of the skills we are talking about that is lacking. This is for single mothers who are victims of violence.

12:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Sorry, Ms. Brown. We have 10 minutes left in this whole session, so I'm going to intervene.

We have heard nothing from Ms. Shauk.

I would like to give you an opportunity to say something, to make a statement, to tell us what you would like to leave us with.

12:45 p.m.

Outreach Worker, Native Friendship Centre of Montreal Inc.

Pamela Shauk

I'm going to try my best.

The women here have pretty much said most of the things that I would have said. I've been working at the Native Friendship Centre for the past 22 years. There have been too many cutbacks at the friendship centre. We lack staff and we don't have enough money to hire people.

It's nice for you guys to invite me. I'm kind of shy and I don't really know—

12:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

We just want to hear in a few words how this works. It's important to us.

You talked about cutbacks and you talked about therefore having to lay off staff. What are the other things you feel...? How do you feel your friendship centres are working? Are there many youth coming there?

12:45 p.m.

Outreach Worker, Native Friendship Centre of Montreal Inc.

Pamela Shauk

Yes, we have a youth centre. They're open from Monday to Friday, I think, from one to nine. Sometimes they do activities on the weekend, such as going out there with the youth and helping them to get off the streets. We also help them to go back to school.

We are helping women to go back to school. As Ellen Gabriel mentioned, we have native women who are single, who have kids, and we're trying to help them out, to get back to school.

They are not the only ones who are starting one. We also have the Kativik Board, which is an Inuit organization. I think the one they have is pretty much mixed, with Inuit and aboriginal.

I'd like to see more people work at the friendship centre with us. We need more social workers, as I mentioned. We need psychologists. We need lots of help there. We need more workers to come and work with us.

I really enjoy working with people. I'm a people person. I work with people, and I like working with people.

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you very much, Ms. Shauk.

We have eight minutes left. There were a couple of things I wanted to ask. The chair rarely gets that pleasure.

We've heard so much information today that I think it's really important for the committee to understand the difference between the needs of women on reserve and the needs of women off reserve, the urban women coming from Vancouver, which is where I am.

Aboriginal women seem to be no one's child. Nobody wants to accept responsibility for them. The federal government says they're off reserve, don't look at us. The provincial government says it's a federal jurisdiction for all aboriginal people. Generally speaking, the municipalities are the ones who have to deal with the reality of their lives. As Stella well knows, from having gone to Vancouver, a lot of these women end up on the streets. They end up being sex trade workers because they have no choice. They become addicted. They're exploited enormously. When all of these women were killed, as we saw in the Pickton incident, these were women who did go into the shadows, into the dark places, so that they could get a $5 trick to buy their next fix because they had nothing, or to get $5 so that they could feed their kids. This is the plight of women who are off reserve and in the cities. The solution I've heard you saying—you sort of hinted at it—has to be very different than for the women on reserve.

I'd like to hear just a quick synopsis about what you think one should do to deal with the fact that no one wants to take responsibility for aboriginal women off reserve.

On reserve, when we went to Nunavut and other places—and I find this distressing because you mentioned it, Ms. Gabriel—we heard that aboriginal women seem to think that violence is just their lot, that this is what their lives are going to be like. There is the sense of absolute hopelessness because of the intergenerational residential school thing. They grew up not seeing parenting, but knowing that they were bad, to speak their language was awful, their culture was terrible, they were little savages, and they had to change, and to be who they were.... Many of them were treated with sexual, psychological, emotional, and sometimes physical violence. For them, violence is something that has been handed down intergenerationally. Women don't want to leave the reserve; they don't want to leave home. Many of them believe that their husbands or their partners are not necessarily finding ways to deal with that same problem that all aboriginal people have.

On the concept of a shelter, a crisis centre, I'd like to hear.... If you had a crisis centre, how would that work if the women did not want to leave home? We also heard that when the police came in, the police wanted to lay a criminal charge and the women didn't want them to lay a criminal charge. So they didn't report it because they didn't want their husband or their partner to be taken away from the family, and they were disrupting the whole reserve by this. So they shut up and waited until it got so very bad.

If you had crisis centres there on reserve and they needed to move from a crisis centre to a shelter, to a transitional house, and then to second-stage housing, which are three different entities, how would you see that working? Would they have to leave the reserve? How would they move from the family? There's a conundrum there. How do we resolve that conundrum?

If you could answer those two questions, one about the plight of the urban aboriginal woman and the other one.... Everywhere we've gone we've heard about the need for a national, comprehensive, integrated, interjurisdictional, long-term strategy working with communities to ensure that they can do that, and that's the only thing that will work. You just repeated everything we're hearing everywhere we go.

Can I have an answer to those quickly? And then I want to thank you for having come.

Ms. Gabriel, I'm looking at you.

12:50 p.m.

President, Quebec Native Women Inc.

Ellen Gabriel

On reserve, you have this nature of everyone knowing everybody. Even police are hesitant to charge. They'll say, “Let him sleep it off and he'll be okay.” So we have this issue.

You know, when growing up I thought violence was just normal as well, and it takes a while for you to realize that it's not. So I think it's very important in a crisis centre that you're dealing with the family, not just dealing with the woman but dealing with the family and dealing with police officers who are sensitized to the nature of violence, whether it's sexual violence, conjugal violence, or even any kind of violence. We know that two-thirds of people in a community also experience violence and can run into crisis situations.

I think what is needed is to have those healthy elders who worked through whatever trauma they have had in residential schools, or those who didn't go to residential schools, to be able to counsel couples, as we had in our traditional ways of doing things. That we include the best of both cultures, which is psychologists, social workers, with elders, to be able to have access, and to allow them the freedom to choose if they don't want to have one or the other. We have to look at some of the root problems, and we've discussed those things.

We need to be able to allow them to have the time to heal. When you go through something traumatic and then the next day you're supposed to go to work, you can't function in your work, so you may lose your job. I think there needs to be some compassion given to families who are in crisis, to say, if they're working for the band or if they're working for someone else—and that's where the multi-jurisdictions come in—“This woman has been beaten, her children are suffering. Give her at least two weeks to be able to catch her breath, to be able to know where she wants to go.” She will not leave her husband, as Béatrice has said, because she doesn't want to leave the home. Her husband may be the breadwinner.

We need to look at it from a compassionate point of view, but integrating both traditional and western forms of healing and well-being.

I guess I'll end it there.

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you.

Is there anyone who wants to say something on off-reserve...? Obviously, Nakuset or Ms. Martin, you are the two people who work with women who are off reserve, women who are urban aboriginal women in the cities. We've heard from Stella on this issue.

What is the solution for them? Sending them back to the reserve may not be the answer. What do you do when no one wants to fund programs, no one wants to take responsibility for programs that will assist women who are victims of systemic as well as domestic and other violence in the cities, where the violence is even greater from a systemic point of view?

12:55 p.m.

Evaluation Coordinator, Native Women's Shelter of Montreal

Carrie Martin

Right now in the outreach program that we have going, there's only one worker and I think there are 176 registered clients. I think other organizations that are non-aboriginal need to get on board and start coming together and working with the aboriginal community. We have a lack of aboriginal-specific services, but there are so many services that exist right now. They just need to start incorporating a little bit of the traditional healing.

As Ellen was saying, combine western healing with traditional healing and make sure that the existing services can be adapted to the needs of aboriginal people. There needs to be sensitivity training for different workers in the community. There needs to be some kind of cultural sensitivity training for what already exists in the community so that these women will feel at ease to access the services, they won't feel discriminated, and they won't feel that they don't belong there because it's not an aboriginal-specific resource.

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you very much.

I'm sorry, Ms. Laliberté.

12:55 p.m.

General Coordinator, Stella

Émilie-Cloé Laliberté

That's very important; I'm talking about direct line services. Before being a general coordinator, I did direct interventions in the street for five years. You have to be able to respond to immediate needs, which are extremely urgent. I believe a drunk tank in Montreal would be very important. Apparently, there may be a single drunk tank in downtown.

A drunk tank is a shelter where people can go when they are drunk or intoxicated. I think it's to our benefit to have a drunk tank for aboriginal women as well, where they could have a group kitchen, for example, in order to develop skills.

It would really be a centre for drying out. However, if people want to stay longer, they could get support. Elders could offer long-term counselling. This would have to be funded on a sustainable basis. These are essential aspects.

1 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you.

It appears to me that if you had a national strategy--not a federal strategy, but a national strategy--it might actually be able to catch within it the women off reserve. They are really the lost people, in that no one wants to help them.

Thank you very much for coming. I appreciate the time you took. You were very comprehensive in what you had to say. I like to think that you were as frank with us as some of us were with you.

I want to thank you again so much for coming. We really appreciate it.

Since it is a quasi-formal session, we'll move to suspend.

2 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

I call the meeting to order.

I want to thank the witnesses for coming today.

We're looking at the issue of violence against aboriginal women from many perspectives. We're looking at the root causes of violence. We're looking at the scope, the extent of violence. We're looking at the types of violence--emotional, physical, etc. We're also looking at it on reserve and off reserve, the differences or different forms of violence and how to deal with it in both of those settings. We're also looking at solutions. So hopefully you'll be able to touch on much of that in your presentations.

As there are only two of you here...I just want to tell the committee that the Women's Centre of Montreal just called and cancelled. Also, the Kahnawake Peacekeepers called and said something had come up and they just couldn't make it. They were going to represent the law enforcement component of it.

So we have two witnesses. Normally, what we do when we start is we give you a bit of time to present. This morning, because there were many people, we did a round table discussion. But given that there are only two of you, I would like you to just make a presentation, and then we're going to ask the committee to introduce themselves and the supporting officers, and then we're just going to go into an open discussion back and forth.

How would you like to begin, Madame Bousquet?

2:05 p.m.

Marie-Pierre Bousquet Associate Professor, Faculty of Anthropology, University of Montreal, As an Individual

I would prefer it that my colleague starts because we tried to prepare complementary presentations in order to be as efficient as possible.

2:05 p.m.

Prof. Mylène Jaccoud Full Professor, School of Criminology, Université de Montréal, As an Individual

First of all, I would like to thank you for this invitation. I'm going to start with a brief presentation and tell you about my expertise, in particular.

I've been interested in aboriginal issues and criminal justice since 1985. I am a full professor at the School of Criminology of the University of Montreal. I've explored a number of aspects of aboriginal issues, in particular through work that I've been able to do on the marginalization of aboriginal women in urban areas, more particularly in Montreal. Through a life history, I've traced marginalization pathways.

I've done some work on aboriginal police. I've looked into aboriginal perspectives on social regulation and criminal justice. I have been interested and still am very interested today in potential approaches other than traditional justice. I've done some work on healing circles and sentencing circles. Restorative justice is one of my fields of expertise. I've also started work on the incarceration of aboriginal women. I recently completed a recent project on the experience of aboriginal women who are victims of violence in relation to the resources they have been able to use. Lastly, I am currently a member of a research team, with my colleague Marie-Pierre Bousquet, on the experience of aboriginal women in relation to violence here in Quebec, specifically for the purpose of determining action that may be taken based on the women's experiences. That, in summary, is my background.

I would like to mention that, although some of the projects I just cited did not focus directly on violence against women, it goes without saying that that issues runs through all the projects I have done to date.

My presentation is based on three issues in particular. I should say “our presentation” since, as my colleague said, we agreed to combine our presentations. The first issue is as follows: what is the situation regarding violence against aboriginal women in Quebec? The second issue is: how should we analyze the situation? Let's put the question another way: why are things not improving? The third question is as follows: what action measures would be promising?

My colleague will mainly focus on the second question. In my remarks, I will try to answer the first question. Then I will encroach on the third question. Marie-Pierre Bousquet will also address the third question.

What is the situation regarding violence against aboriginal women in Quebec? I would say at the outset that there is no statistical or qualitative overall picture of the violence experienced by aboriginal women in Quebec. There are studies, but they are scattered and not very recent. Those few studies suggest that violence is not a recent phenomenon. We mainly began to talk about it in the 1980s. Moreover, it is not because we started talking about it in the 1980s that it wasn't going on before that. It does not appear to be a declining phenomenon, quite on the contrary, it seems to be growing, which is of course very disturbing. It is very widespread in the communities, but also in the urban centres.

I draw your attention to the fact that the major challenge in future will also be to deal with what is going on in urban areas, since there has been a major shifts by aboriginal to urban areas since the 1980s. The violence is serious and comes in many forms, that is to say it is physical, psychological and sexual. It is more widespread, but also more serious than among non-aboriginals. It starts earlier, in childhood. It is expressed over a very long period of life. It usually starts in childhood and continues into adulthood. It is a daily occurrence, trivialized and part of a family relationship dynamic, and thus arises between spouses, and it is transgenerational. There are other things to say about it, but let's say that's a summary.

As I mentioned, I conducted a study on the experience of aboriginal women who are victims of violence. We surveyed a number of accounts of experiences of 36 women from various nations in Quebec. Based on that research into the experience of those women and into the various resources that we could use, I was able to make other findings. I'll mention them briefly. I'll obviously have the opportunity to answer your questions more specifically, particularly on the strategies implemented by the women who are confronted with a dynamic of violence, and also on the impact of the resources used.

This is a qualitative study. It revealed, among other things, that one of the problems is that, from the initial outbreaks of violence, aboriginal women tend to adapt to the situation and to really do nothing. That's often an initial reaction, and it's an attitude that is a factor in maintaining the cycle of violence. We also found that all women in our sample used a considerable number of formal and informal resources, some 15 on average, in their life path, during their experience. The average age of our sample of women was 44 years. The main results of these studies who that an aboriginal woman's ability to break out of the cycle of violence, or to remain in it, is related to three interrelated aspects. Those aspects are as follows: socio-demographic profile, victimization profile and use of resources in the event of violence. So these are the types of resources and the chronology of the use of those resources.

Let's briefly mention some other elements of the socio-demographic profile. I would perhaps simply like to mention that the research, based on those 36 paths, enabled us to determine two groups: one group that is doing relatively well, which has managed to break out of this cycle of violence, and the second group, at the time of the interviews, that has remained prisoners of that violence. So our research attempted to understand what differentiated those two groups.

The socio-demographic profile is precisely what differentiates them. Educated women, women who are in the work force do much better. Aboriginal women seem much more resilient than Inuit women. The emotional isolation of women is very important, as we'll see, in taking action, the destructuring of the family cell, and in particular, the loss of parental custody, which may or may not result in the violence experienced, contribute to a context which is not particularly conducive to a break with the dynamics of violence.

As regards the victimization profile, we finally realized that it was less the objective seriousness of the violence than the duration and type of violence that differentiated the women who did better from those who remained within the dynamic of violence.

It emerges that sexual violence and violence that occurs early in childhood are two factors of persistence in the violent situation. What is more, I would say that those two situations, sexual violence and early violence, tend to favour the adoption of violent behaviours in women victims as well. This enables me to mention that violence must absolutely be analyzed in the context of a dynamic. I'm going to place considerable emphasis on the idea that this issue must really be integrated into the dynamic. In addition, we must break the polarized analysis, the classic analysis when it comes to violence against women of the executioner and victim type. Furthermore, the studies very clearly show that men who are violent were also victims of violence during their childhoods.

With regard to the third aspect, the resources used, we realized that the resilient group and the group that persists in violence do not differ greatly with respect to the type of resources used.

All the women in our sample made use of the family, the police, treatment centres, traditional practices, safe houses, and so on. I obviously have more things to say; we'll see based on your questions.

We realized that the most important thing is not so much the type of resource that is used as the manner in which that resource is used. More particularly, one has to look at what goals the women pursue when they use a specialized resource providing help this regard to violence. For example, aboriginal women who use resources for respite or protection are usually the ones who remain in that dynamic of violence because they use it somewhat provisionally, as respite, whereas women who use the same resources with a view to personally taking or taking back control of their lives are the ones who do much better.

I have a lot of things to say, but I'll close with the promising action measures. I'll offer them all together. For me, it's very important that the action measures be implemented on a number of fronts at the same time. I think it's extremely important not to target just one measure, but to consider a whole range of them.

First I would say that we must change our way of understanding the phenomenon of violence against women. I'll give you some details if you have any questions on that. We also must not duplicate non-aboriginal actions and programs in an aboriginal setting; we must not cut and paste. Initiatives that come from aboriginals themselves must be reinforced. It must be understood, and I really emphasize this, that repressive approaches are not constructive. A distinction has to be drawn; we must not confuse safety or exclusion, for example of the aggressor with repression.

The purposes of the justice system must be transformed by innovating through the adoption of various responses. I'm thinking of the courts specialized in domestic violence, for example. We must develop interventions that are inclusive, that is to say that include all the protagonists: spouse, family and community, in particular, through cultural practices. I'm thinking of what I know a little better, the healing circles, restorative justice and justice committees.

I think we also have to act upstream from the problem, not just on the problem, by, for example, supporting and reinforcing the leadership of aboriginal women in the communities, supporting access to key positions, to local authorities such as the mayor's office, etc. We have to fight poverty, develop a harm reduction approach to drugs and alcohol. We have to support aboriginal women's associations, and so on.

I think training should be given on violence to all psychosocial stakeholders who intervene in the community, which includes health staff, police officers, socio-judicial staff, but also teaching staff, for example. Similar training has to be planned in urban areas as well.

In my opinion, we must not standardize the programs and actions that might be adopted; we have to be aware of the specific nature of the communities in order to support those actions. I think we should develop policies in urban areas to combat discrimination, stereotypes, to reinforce the deployment of a support network for aboriginal women in urban areas; that's the great challenge for the future.

I would close by mentioning one very important element. At the political level, we must start soon to eliminate all the discriminatory sections in the Indian Act.

Thank you.

2:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you.

Madame Bousquet.

2:20 p.m.

Associate Professor, Faculty of Anthropology, University of Montreal, As an Individual

Marie-Pierre Bousquet

Thank you very much.

I'd also like to start by thanking you for inviting me to come and testify here. I'll introduce myself as well.

I am Marie-Pierre Bousquet. I am Associate Professor in the Department of Anthropology of the University of Montreal. I've been working on aboriginal issues since the mid-1990s, and I am more particularly interested in Amerindian societies, and thus a little less in Inuit societies.

I lived in an Anishnabe community in Quebec for a year in 1996. I have continued making frequent stays there since then for my research and other reasons. Since my research discipline, my work is mainly focused on field research, and that's extremely important for me.

I have examined various issues throughout my years in research, but I have focused particularly on intergenerational relations, relations with the land, on the landscape of religious beliefs, on disintoxication, on the passage into adulthood, and I'm also taking part in a research project on the experience of aboriginal women with violence, in a research group to which Mylène Jaccoud belongs.

I have cited all these research themes. They don't necessarily seem related to violence to you. In fact, they are. If I just take the example of relations with the land, the fact, for example, of sometimes staying on the land or getting closer to the land may be a way for women to become more aware of the violence they experience, of finding a certain peace and making decisions. That's just to give you an idea. All the themes I've addressed here are related to social problems. So I'm going to elaborate in particular on the second point stated by Ms. Jaccoud, that is why violence is perpetuated in aboriginal environments.

As you no doubt know, aboriginal women have the sad record of being the most vulnerable population in all of Canada. On a daily basis, they are the women who are most often victims of family violence and spousal abuse by their spouses who, I recall, can be either aboriginal or alloriginal. It's not necessarily a question of the spouse's origin.

There is every reason to believe that violence has always existed, in all societies, but that it is only increasing among aboriginal peoples. This growth is related to a number of factors: the stress of colonization, the pressure of acculturation and the imposition of Canadian ways of doing things. It has also only increased with the collapse of the traditional economy of the aboriginal peoples and with the unemployment related to that collapse, with the shifts to a sedentary lifestyle, with the increased guardianship of subsequent government authorities and with the social responses such as alcohol abuse and drug abuse, which existed before the switch to sedentary lifestyles but which have undergone phenomenal development since that shift.

We can therefore say that the accumulated injuries have created a vicious circle of violence, which partly explains this perpetuation of violence. We can distinguish two general ways of managing violence in the aboriginal communities. The first are the traditional methods of conflict management. The second is resorting to institutions that were originally imposed by the colonial regime, that is to say the police and the law courts.

I have done a lot of work on the issue of traditional methods of conflict management. Those traditional methods have been quite undermined by the intervention, indeed interventionism, of the Canadian government and its law enforcement representatives. By interventionism, I mean here the interference in the affairs of aboriginal peoples with the use, in particular, of a legal system that absolutely did not appeal to the aboriginal peoples and that was not based on their ways of viewing the offence and other aspects.

There nevertheless are still aboriginal ways to assist women suffering from violence, ways that I would call informal resources. One of the most important informal resources, in the research I have conducted for aboriginal women and Amerindian women in particular is the family network. By that I mean the network of over-kinship, that is to say both kinship and affinity. This is a mutual assistance network consisting of people who general kindred relationships, but who are not necessarily very close relations.

Aboriginal women who are victims of violence can also turn to formal resources such as social services programs and safe houses. However, they don't necessarily always know those resources. And they don't necessarily feel very comfortable there either. Why doesn't this situation improve? There are many reasons. My colleague has already mentioned a few. I'm not going to try to classify them, but I think the most important is without a doubt the general apathy toward this problem.

The fate of aboriginal women seems to be—I'm going to say it in English with a very bad accent and I apologize to the anglophones—the dirty little secret of Canada. Tens of Amerindian, Inuit and Metis women disappear and are assassinated without that mobilizing the media or the authorities. So there should obviously be—that's no doubt why you are here—a federal political will, a provincial and local will to change things.

The preferred models that we tend to think of are the police, the law courts and the other agents in charge of maintaining the regulations of society. Those models, preferred by those whom I call “the agents of social regulation” are repression, on the one hand, and treatment or prevention on the other.

As my colleague said, we clearly realized, based on all the research we did, that repression doesn't work at all. Moreover, the programs are very scattered, which makes them highly unproductive and they are also poorly matched with the informal resources that are not really taken into account, which considerably undermines their effectiveness.

In addition, aboriginals still have very little control over the implementation of programs. The communities are not independent with regard to development, and their general state of economic and administrative dependence contributes largely to the problem. The housing and job shortages and low education levels are part of the equation of reproduction and violence. Moreover, as my colleague emphasized, the more a woman has access to a good education and is integrated into the work force, the more chances she will have of breaking out of the circle of violence.

With regard to education, we cannot forget a fact that contributes to the lack of governance, that aboriginals lack training to apply treatment and prevention programs. Furthermore, if they wish to build programs that are more consistent with their way of doing things, they must at times seek private funding and do not always know where to get it.

Even though women are increasingly accessing positions as chiefs and spokespersons for their nations, the fact nevertheless remains that power remains largely in the hands of men, whether it be at the head of band councils or at the head of Quebec municipalities where aboriginals live. The political discrimination of women for Quebec societies was introduced through relations with Euro-Canadians and amplified through the legal violence?? suffered by Amerindian women since the 19th century. I won't go into the history of the Indian Act, which you must surely know, or the debates to which that act still give rise, but I would like to emphasize that the maintenance of legal discrimination against women, which violates their rights and freedom to identify themselves and their descendants as Amerindians, is part of that violence and at times helps give people living in the communities arguments for excluding women and maintaining violence against them.

That also contributes to a segregation of their problems, as a result of which aboriginal women clearly understood, when they decided to create their associations in the early 1970s, that they had to attack on their own, without separating the two subjects, both the injustices of the Indian Act and the problems of violence. I'm thinking of the aboriginal woman from Quebec, for example, who belongs to the Quebec Native Women's Association. From the time the Association was established, the two themes have always been completely linked. Moreover, it is time that everyone share their awareness of that fact.

Although the aboriginal women's associations have made it possible to achieve progress in taking the abuses this population suffers into account, the community levers are still inadequate.

A good example is the promotion of models of conduct in which the leadership of women is not rightly valued. In the aboriginal communities, women are generally viewed in a paradoxical manner as keepers of the culture and as being responsible for transmitting that culture. So one could say at the outset that this is a highly valued hot, very prestigious role, but at the same time it's difficult for them to enter important positions and to make their voices heard. So they also work very hard to show that being a woman and aboriginal can be associated with pursing an education, getting involved politically and socially and the embodiment of values such as sobriety, care for others and so on. So it would undoubtedly be necessary to encourage and develop these models of conduct and access for women to leadership.

Lastly, it should be borne in mind, even though it's obvious, that aboriginal cultures must be taken into account. The perpetuation of violence also depends on factors that are observed in aboriginal environments, such as the rule of silence, which is a big problem—if only in detecting violence before confronting it—fear of informing and the fact that people can find violence and acceptable. I lived in an Anishinabe community for a year, and I can tell you that, by the end of one year, I wound up finding violence normal—in talking like that when people tell each other village gossip—and that scared me. So this is part of that environment.

Aboriginal women generally live in a close relationship with those who make them suffer, and they are often afraid that, if they speak out, they will break up their social environment and the support they have. These factors, which maintain a status quo, must be considered in environments that very much operate in isolation. Together with that is the fact that the current response to violence against aboriginal women are inappropriate and inadequate.

It also should not be forgotten that the history of relations between the Royal Canadian Mounted Police or the police in the aboriginal communities is a charged history that is past on in aboriginal circles, of particularly harsh action taken against aboriginal people, interventions that were considered unjustified, imprisonment for minor offences, and the removal of children from their parents. Moreover, the history of relations with the law courts isn't any better. That history weighs on the quality and effectiveness of services provided by police and the justice system in aboriginal communities. In addition to that is the fact that many services won't be adapted to aboriginal cultures, quite simply as a result of a total and absolute lack of knowledge of aboriginal cultures—that strikes me every time.

There are of course aboriginal police officers, aboriginal social workers, substance abuse and crime caseworkers who are aboriginal, and other qualified staff. Their advantages that they know the actual situation on the ground, but there aren't always enough of them, far from it. In addition, they very often have close ties with the assailants or their victims and are not always well trained, particularly in detecting violence that isn't necessarily physically predictable. So they often tend to apply the term violence to what corresponds to very visible marks of blows—we've seen that in particular in the research we're conducting right now. However, the violence isn't limited strictly to that form; it can be non-verbal but can be verbal as well. We also noted that, for non-physical violence in particular, non-aboriginal staff are not necessarily better trained than aboriginal staff.

My colleague has already noted some courses of action, and I'm going to focus particularly on two of them. It's important to start by emphasizing that it is hard to talk about women without talking about men. First, that doesn't reflect the views of women or what they want in the matter, and if women are also suffering from violence, is because the men are suffering too. The spouses, family members and children are all part of this circle of violence. They are all affected by the resulting trauma, either because they are responsible for it, because they are its targets or simply because they have experience and reproduce it. Everyone needs support, and the care and attention in the social environment must be comprehensive.

The development of traditional approaches should also be encouraged. By traditional approaches, I also mean simply aboriginal approaches, that is to say innovative models, that the aboriginals would like to experiment with if they consider them more appropriate to their way of being.

Allow me to finish by emphasizing one fact. As a result of my specialization, I am particularly interested in culture, but the cultural difference of aboriginal women must absolutely be taken into account in helping the manage these problems.

That cultural difference exists and is lasting. It is there despite 500 years of living together. We must, in particular, involve and sensitize not only aboriginals, but also Allochtones in this matter, to help address and destroy prejudices that have lasted as a result of ignorance and that perpetuate the systemic violence against aboriginals.

Thank you.

2:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Merci beaucoup.

We'll begin with some questions. We're not going to stick to seven minutes, etc.

Lois's hand is up, and then we have Michelle, and we have Luc, Nicole, and Irene. I just want to get them in order, that's all.

All right, start, Lois.