Status of Women Committee on June 11th, 2010

[Grand Chief Anne Archambault]

I hope I will be able to answer your question.

I noted that you talked about skills, so that we can provide help. I think if we actually did a diagnosis in a number of different areas, we might be better able to introduce training that would meet the needs of these individuals. That diagnosis could be cultural, spiritual and educational, so that we would really be identifying the individual's needs in order to direct him to the appropriate resources.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Who would do that diagnosis? Who would be the person to provide that?

[Grand Chief Anne Archambault]

The first nation.

That is why I emphasized the need for us to have our own institutions, because we know what our needs are and can then… What we are lacking are resources. We know what the needs are.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

I'm going to come full circle on this question, then. Part of the problem we're dealing with here is a lack of self-esteem. We've heard that across the panel and we heard that yesterday.

If the problem is a lack of self-esteem that is creating this sense of not being productive and not being able to provide for their families, and if part of that contributes to violence, or to addiction and substance abuse, which in turn contribute to violence against women, then it would seem to me that we need to come back to the very beginning. We need to ask what it is that we need to provide in order to help individuals develop the self-esteem and the self-reliance they need to feel that they are contributing members.

We heard yesterday from one of our witnesses that part of the problem they see with aboriginal people is that on the reserve there are people who are given certificates that allow them to do work on the reserve, but those certificates are not recognized as professional or formal certificates off the reserve. So a person may be working as a social worker on the reserve, but they can't take that same certificate or certification and go to an urban area where they might want to work with an urban aboriginal community.

Off the reserve, they're told, “I'm sorry, but your certificate is worthless here”. So there's no continuity. There is no ability for a person who moves off the reserve to make an adequate living when they're living in an urban centre.

What I heard earlier from Mr. Duchesneau was that with a population of 3,000 aboriginal people in your community, more than half of them are living in an urban centre. So if we can't take that level of service, that diploma, from those individuals and say to them that they can come into town and work in town with the community, then we really have not provided a tool that is useful.

Madame Desnoyers, as you said, the tool is useless because it's not transferable.

How do we help our aboriginal people gain that level of certification, that recognition, so that they are then able to parlay that into a job, into a resource that will provide for their families? In the process, we would see a reduction in substance abuse and also a reduction in violence against families, which clearly has to be addressed.

[The Acting Chair, Bloc, Nicole Demers]

If you don't mind, I'm going to ask Ms. Mélanie Denis-Damée to comment first because she wanted to respond earlier to Ms. Brown's first question.

After that, we will hear from Mr. Savard and Ms. Brassard.

Go ahead, Ms. Denis-Damée.

[Mélanie Denis-Damée]

I would like to talk about self-esteem. You referred to self-esteem twice but it never came up again in the conversation.

In terms of violence, it isn't always easy to rebuild as a person, whether it's a man or a woman. In each case, there are often fears and doubts that remain. You have to be able to trust the person you're with. But it isn't easy to trust another person again, to rebuild as a person or give yourself a new opportunity to start afresh in life.

In terms of my own experience, I can say that it wasn't easy for me to rebuild at a personal level, because I had trouble trusting people, even though I had resources. I have been living in an urban environment for a long time and I didn't really turn to my community for help to rebuild my life.

There isn't really any encouragement for people living the communities. That person will feel alone, because he or she has very little self-esteem. There is no encouragement, even for young people—and I can speak for young people. When they don't receive any encouragement, they don't look any further than what is there.

In the communities, they often say it takes an entire community to raise a child. My experience is that most parents don't provide any encouragement because they have alcohol and drug addiction problems.

As a result, a child grows up thinking that it's perfectly normal to use these substances. And violence reigns; the children don't know where to go and they don't know what a normal life really is. And there are also the children who are left on their own. They grow up faster. They see themselves as adults sooner, as was my case. At the age of 13, I was an adult because I had been left on my own. In the house, there was drinking going on and violence mixed in. The sexual abuse occurred in that context. And we still see that in today's reality.

So, it's not easy to rebuild on a personal level. I work on that on a daily basis. And today, I have the sense that I'm not sitting here for nothing. If I were still the person I was in the past, I would not be here today talking about the Aboriginal reality.

I agree with Anne when she says that the men also need to receive services. I agree with her when she suggests that there has to be psychological and mental support for the men, because this also comes from their own past. It isn't always easy to reach the male ego. They will tell you that everything is fine, that they feel better today, but you don't know what is behind all of that. I have often seen that happen. I wouldn't say they are egotistical, but their ego is not easy to reach. Getting them to talk about what they have been through is not easy either. Their past is a burden for them, a burden they have to carry. When I was young, I often saw my uncles hitting their father. They also fell into that whole dynamic. It has become a vicious cycle.

I agree with Anne when she says there have to be resources for the men. In any case, that is part of the reality.

We have been talking about young people and youth protection services. But it's the same thing today. What will happen to these young people if they are always being taken away from their families?

I am about to begin a social work program. It's not easy to be under youth protection services. It was a good thing for me, but it is not always easy. When children are placed in non-Aboriginal foster homes, they lose their culture. That is what happened with my children. I had to take them back there.

[The Acting Chair, Bloc, Nicole Demers]

Thank you very much, Ms. Denis-Damée.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

May I have just one moment, Madam Chair?

Madame Denis-Damée, I would like to thank you for being so transparent today about your experience. I'm sure it's not easy for you to be here and to open yourself up that way to the committee, but I'd like thank you very much.

I applaud you for doing the work you're doing. Being able to go back to your community with a certificate that is recognized and that you can use anywhere is going to be very valuable to the work you can do in the future in identifying the problems and helping to come up with solutions to them. Thank you.

[The Acting Chair, Bloc, Nicole Demers]

Mr. Savard, please.

[Stéphane Savard]

I will try to answer all your questions. I took notes as you were speaking. There are certain realities when it comes to the communities. You talked about education and certification. We need our own structures. It has to start from the grassroots, from our own economic development. The fact is that the communities are emptying out. We are losing our resources and all of that. And it is that way because we are talking about a dream. We all have dreams. Our dream is to work in our community. That was and remains our dream: to work for our own people, for our own community, within structures that we have built on our own. Economic development means taking an active role. That is what our communities want and that is what the men want.

Often we are unable to meet basic needs. You talked about self-esteem, which is a basic need. Having a roof over our head, food, clothing and a job are basic needs. After that there can be self-esteem. Housing is overcrowded, with eight to ten people living together in cramped conditions. So, there is a whole mixture of problems.

I talked about the dream, but I also talked about our profound discontentment. And I would like to talk to you about that. I worked with people in my community. But what kind of dream or inspiration can you give someone who comes to you for help? You have to try to help them to empower themselves. You have to work with them on a personal level, but you also have to have levers so that the dreams and goals an individual sets for himself are realistic.

Yes, education is important, but it must reflect our own way of doing things and our own needs, particularly in terms of economic development. That is why we want our own institutions and to be in charge of our own economic development. We don't have any economic levers. Unfortunately, the Indian Act just aims to assimilate us.

[The Acting Chair, Bloc, Nicole Demers]

Ms. Brassard, I think you want to comment.

[Renée Brassard]

Your question is important. You need to have specific things in mind when talking about skills development. In terms of skills development, it's not really that complicated. What actually is a skill?

Well, it is a gap or something missing in someone, such as a lack of self-esteem. You say that everything flows from self-esteem, but I don't think so. Self-esteem is a consequence of the historic wrongs suffered by the Aboriginal peoples. It is only an outcome.

And let's talk about skills development. Let's look at your example of a work certificate. You say that one of the current micro-issues is that a certificate received in an Aboriginal community is not transferable to somewhere else. So, people can't go and work outside their community. But the problem is the example itself. First of all, skills development is an individual action. Since 1990, commissions of inquiry have been telling us that individual actions are not yielding any results. What is needed are collective actions. We have to take a comprehensive approach to the problem, rather than chipping away at it in pieces. I would like to use your example to explain the risks associated with this.

I am an Aboriginal person and I have a work certificate which is valid within the geographic confines of my community. We also need to think about what is going to happen if that certificate is valid outside the community. Outside the community, Aboriginal people are serious victims of racism and discrimination. As a result, Aboriginal Canadians are rarely interested in leaving their community. Just take a look at what's happening in communities in the North, in major urban centres like Val-d'Or. It's total discrimination. Aboriginal people are also telling us that they want to work for their own people. Indeed, Trudeau's white paper clearly showed that the Aboriginal people have always refused, throughout their history, to empty their communities.

If certificates that allow an Aboriginal person to be exiled from his community become a reality, what effect will that have? Well, it will result in a massive exile of community members, massive urbanization, and ultimately, the assimilation of Aboriginal people in the urban environment. It will result in a cultural loss. In an urban environment, people will not be in contact with their culture. It is terrible for an Aboriginal man, for example, to have to leave his nation and his extended family, when we know that their relational systems operate primarily on the basis of extended families. Providing for a work certificate to be valid outside the community also makes for a break with the individual's cultural identity. Aboriginal people will never be interested in that kind of measure—never, and I understand why.

[The Acting Chair, Bloc, Nicole Demers]

Thank you very much, Ms. Brassard.

Ms. Hughes, please.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

I would like to stay on that topic. I agree with you, but a lot of Aboriginal people want to move forward. The fact is that they don't have the money to do that. The fact that they live in poverty prevents them from pursuing post-secondary studies. The amount of money they receive the from the government is not enough to educate young people. You are our future, and your children are our future.

The lack of funding for infrastructure plays an important role in the fact that your communities live in poverty and Aboriginals in urban environments are also living in poverty. Program funding is inadequate. For example, this lady talked about funding for friendship centres. It's fine to say that the money is flowing through Health Canada, but they are not getting more. They have been making do with the same amount of money for 10 years now. The urban Aboriginal population has increased. They can't educate and help people the way they should. As a result, they're very restricted.

In terms of a lack of funding for education, you talked about the Aboriginal Healing Foundation. Perhaps you could explain what impact this is having on your community at the present time. Are those programs still operating? The government said that the money had been allocated to the Department of Health and that programs would be set up through it. What does that mean for your community?

I would also like to say a word or two about the Canadian Firearms Registry, because we are talking about violence here. I am one of the MPs who voted to see the bill move forward in committee. Inside my own caucus, I voted to see it move forward in committee. And I will explain why. There are 17 Aboriginal communities in my riding. How does the Canadian Firearms Registry affect your communities and your rights as Aboriginals? Has the Canadian Firearms Registry really had a positive impact on your communities? It's important to remember that when the registry was first created, a number of things happened. Some organizations that worked with victims told me that it wasn't really the registry itself, but rather the fact that there were changes to the way shotguns had to be locked up and stored and the fact that ammunition has to be stored separately, that really resulted in changes in their community. Could you tell us a little bit about the impact of these measures and whether you are in favour of the registry?

Chief, you talked about sharing natural resources. I can tell you that in Ontario, and with Mr. Layton and the rest of our caucus, we are talking about the fact that, where natural resources are concerned, this money has to be shared. You would not have to ask the government to give you the necessary funding, because you would already have it. A community that had its own money could set up its own programs.

Let's not forget that when the white man came here to your land, you said that you would share. But instead of that, we see governments taking more and more. They stopped giving what they used to give, even though they said you shouldn't live in poverty. I would be interested in your comments on that. I think there is really an impact on violence against women. We could eliminate it if we made some adjustments.

I have to mention a story that Jack Layton told yesterday. He was talking about a community in Attawapiskat where 15 people live in the same house. Someone asked a member of the family where his brother was, because Mr. Layton wanted to meet him. The person answered that his brother had gone to bed because it was his turn to use the bed. There were 15 people living in that house and they had to use the beds on a rotational basis. I will end on that note.

[The Acting Chair, Bloc, Nicole Demers]

Mr. Savard will begin, followed by Ms. Archambault.

[Stéphane Savard]

I would like to come back to what you said about funding through the Aboriginal Healing Foundation. You were saying that funds for certain services are allocated to Health Canada. But previously, the money was allocated directly to the communities. The money was there for structural projects in the communities. Now it is Health Canada that handles this.

So, what happened? We were giving hope to the communities with promising projects, but it was decided to transfer management of the money to a central authority, because there was a loss of control. We talked about autonomy for the communities, but that was part of it. It was based on the basic needs of the community in terms of healing. Let's go back to healing, which has to be community-wide.

We talked about the men's role. Their role in all of that has to be seen in the family context. What is the role of the father, the mother and the children? We talked about this earlier, and Ms. Denis-Damée also talked about it. We see children 7 or 8 years of age becoming adults. That happens because they were taught that it had to be that way. But life isn't like that. There is a need to talk about the role of the parent in light of people's experience in the residential schools and so on. The family has to again be at the centre of the communities and there must be a focus on communications. I believe Ms. Archambault also referred to that. We need to talk about communication, the role of the father and the role of the mother.

In several communities, it is often the women who are working. The role of provider was mentioned and we considered whether men want to be providers. But perhaps we should be thinking of the other roles that a man may play. Hunting, fishing and being out on the land are not as prevalent as they were before. So we have to find alternatives. We keep coming back to the same issues. They may decide to give the money to Health Canada, but they may as well give it to the Good Lord in that case. Health Canada comes into our community and tells us what we have to do with federal programs that don't reflect the basic reality of our communities.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Have the programs disappeared?

[Stéphane Savard]

Well, some communities that were receiving funding previously are no longer getting any. I can cite the example of a community where there were four resource persons working as a result of that funding. Those resources disappeared on April 1, 2010. They were resources in such areas as mental health, drug addiction, traditional healing and a nurse position as well. Those positions have all been abolished.

We have opened wounds by talking about healing and about what is needed to heal the deep scars left from life in the residential schools. We open those wounds, but we never close them again. The consequences of that are serious. We talk about hopes and dreams. This was a program that helped to make things better but, from one day to the next, that program was slashed and can no longer even be called that. There is nothing left of it.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Do you think that will have repercussions on violence against women?

[Stéphane Savard]

In general, I think it will because we have open wounds. People went before adjudicators and relived the memories of what had happened to them in the residential schools in terms of sexual abuse and violence.

What support are we giving these people in the communities? That is the reality. Talking about it also means considering the consequences.

[The Acting Chair, Bloc, Nicole Demers]

Ms. Archambault.

[Grand Chief Anne Archambault]

I would like to return to what we were discussing earlier. We were talking about financial transactions dealing with land use, the construction of the railroad and the white man compensating our communities. There are cases where governments had pledged to pay a certain percentage for use of reserve lands, but hadn't been authorized to carry out certain activities on those lands. So the percentage that was paid was not the one that had been promised. There has been a lot of dishonesty at certain times, and at certain levels, when it comes to the use of our land.

I know whereof I speak because I am talking about the Whitworth Reserve. A railroad crosses that reserve, as well as a bicycle path. Highway 185 cuts right through the Whitworth Reserve. According to the law, this infrastructure is not supposed to be on that land. As for the railroad, at the time, it is my recollection that 6% was supposed to be paid to the community, which actually received 4%. In fact, we have a specific claim that deals with that.

So now we're talking about specific claims; this is where it gets interesting. The problem is that governments always fix things so that we are forever having to go before a court of law. And the lawyers are the ones that get the money, because we are always on the defensive. We are never able to be on the offensive. So, these issues always end up before the courts. If something goes wrong, we're told to go to court. But we can't always afford to go to court either. It's important--

That money that ends up in the hands of lawyers and people other than the First Nations is money that we have no choice but to use to defend ourselves. And the cases that have gone before the Supreme Court of Canada are evidence of that. That takes money. We have no choice but to defend ourselves. We are put in a position of having to invest money in order to defend ourselves.

It's true that the government is investing $285 million over two years, but it should have done that a long time ago. Now the harm is done. We are also on the defensive when it comes to our health. Things are difficult.

The Viger Maliseet First Nation and the First Nations in general are now having to deal with the after-effects. We are trying to find ways to cope at every level: in terms of our society, health care, education and claims. As peoples, we have been crushed. We have been the victims of assimilation. We returned to the reserves 100 years later, and we were asked what we were doing there. We were not where we belonged. According to the Act, we had no right to be there.

We have to deal a lot with the after-effects. Losing one's mother tongue is also a form of violence. Women who are victims of violence have to force themselves to come and testify in front of their torturers. Violence is omnipresent in the First Nations. That is quite something! We are currently experiencing the after-effects. The money invested in First Nation communities is not enough to meet needs, in any area.

There is a serious diabetes problem in the communities. Members tell their chief that they are not able to be airlifted out, that they have no money and that they come back home to die. In 2010, there are still communities that have no water and no electricity.

If we don't start to invest serious money in the First Nations, there will be… The after-effects are already obvious. Hence the importance of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. That is something; it is key. We've been doing this for a long time and we will continue to do it.

Your comment gave me an opportunity to talk about the status of the First Nations in Quebec and Labrador. When I attend a meeting of chiefs, we see the problems. It has become a matter of life or death. And there are statistics to prove it. For years now, we have been collecting statistics and trying to tell the government that members of our community are dying, that people are not well, that we need help and that they should give us our rightful share of natural resources.

We are the custodians of this earth. Mother Earth is not doing well, not well at all, because resources have been plundered to make money. The First Nations are the keepers of this earth. At some point, they will have to listen to us as governments. We are governments. We were governments when you came to our lands.

Your comment gave me an opportunity to pass on my message. Thank you.

[The Acting Chair, Bloc, Nicole Demers]

Thank you very much, Ms. Archambault.

Ms. Brassard.

[Renée Brassard]

I want to come back to a comment made by Ms. Brown about the problems related to developing skills programs. I am going to try to give you a very practical example.

Several years ago, we decided to all focus on development. We looked at Aboriginal families and decided that Aboriginal parents had a real parenting deficit. We found it unbelievable that they would leave their children alone without supervision, that they were all dirty, that 17 children would be living in the same house, and that their daughters would be pregnant at the age of 15.

So, the child welfare system decided to try and develop parenting skills among Aboriginal mothers. But the problem with these parenting skills is that, once again, white people will be defining the appropriate skills and what it means to be a good parent.

I'd like to give you a very concrete example. Recently, at a discussion group on maternity with 10 or more Aboriginal women, one of the women in attendance told me that she had always been able to grow in her community. For her, going to the neighbours to ask for butter was not a problem, because everyone does that there: they never lock their doors and they help each other out. It's a form of community solidarity.

She told me that it was the same thing for their relationship with the land. She said that often, when there are meetings of Aboriginals, you can see one person's children over there in that corner, another person's children over there in another corner, and that all the children are outside. She explained that the relationship with the land is a fundamental value among the Aboriginal people. Children are very free to explore.

In the youth protection context, leaving a child without supervision like that or letting the neighbour look after your child is tantamount to parental negligence. So, the youth protection authorities came into her life. They told this Aboriginal woman that her cultural system amounted to parental negligence. As a result, she was caught up in the youth protection system, and her children were taken away.

And the wonderful social response in Quebec was to amend the Youth Protection Act in 2007. Now it imposes certain timelines. Now they have latched on to the child attachment theory. So, depending on the age of your child, you have a certain period of time to work on or correct your bad parenting. If your child is aged from 0 to 5 years, you only have six months. If your child is between the ages of 6 and 11, you have 12 months, and if your child is aged from 12 to 17 years, you have 18 months.

But is it realistic to impose these timeframes, considering all the things we have been talking about together this morning? Is it realistic to demand that an Aboriginal woman acquire proper parenting skills in 18, 12 or 6 months?

And, if you are not able to rectify or improve your skills within that timeframe, your child will be subject to adoption until the age of majority. That is what happens when you focus on skills and it shows the extent to which this is all part of a government-based post-colonial system of domination.

Right now, we are reliving the 60s scoop. Many Aboriginal women saw their children taken away, supposedly because they were incapable of looking after them. As a result, we are now witnessing an overrepresentation of Aboriginal youth in institutions, youth centres, friendship centres and group homes. Aboriginals are overrepresented in our prisons and penitentiaries. And the women are in safe houses.

[The Acting Chair, Bloc, Nicole Demers]

Mr. Duchesneau.