Thank you.
Evidence of meeting #33 for Status of Women in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pay.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #33 for Status of Women in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pay.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:45 a.m.
Human Rights Director, Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada
Of course, it's going backwards. I'm not going to repeat what my colleagues have said.
My concern is that if we start saving money on the backs of women, where does it stop? What is next? That's pretty frightening.
9:45 a.m.
Liberal
9:45 a.m.
Executive Director, Federally Regulated Employers - Transportation and Communications (FETCO)
We have said that there are certain aspects of this PSECA legislation that we think are beneficial. The primary one that could be applied in the federal jurisdiction for private sector employers, if it's discussed and managed properly, is the joint requirement for the unions and the companies to share responsibility to achieve pay equity.
9:45 a.m.
Liberal
Michelle Simson Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON
Thank you.
Ms. Drolet, since you weren't able to comment on that question, I did have one for you. It is based on a line of questioning that Ms. Brown had. You agreed that the wage gap is narrowing, and Ms. Brown stated that it should be narrowing fairly quickly now.
Can you define “quickly”? I ask because I don't see it as happening quickly. For instance, ten years ago--you may not have that statistic--what was the wage gap, and what inroads have we made since then?
9:50 a.m.
Research Economist, Income Statistics Division, Statistics Canada
I think we do have that statistic. Based on the 1997 labour force survey data, the ratio in hourly wages was about 81¢, and it's increased by about 3¢ or 4¢, to up to about 84¢ or 85¢.
9:50 a.m.
Liberal
9:50 a.m.
Research Economist, Income Statistics Division, Statistics Canada
Yes. Sorry, the beginning of--
9:50 a.m.
Liberal
Michelle Simson Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON
At its current ratio, are there any projections, especially based on legislation like this and moving backwards, on how quickly we could expect to maybe reach some parity or something close to parity?
9:50 a.m.
Research Economist, Income Statistics Division, Statistics Canada
One issue that Ms. Brown raised was about the doctors, for example. We know that the wage gap is smaller among new graduates, and it tends to increase over time. In terms of the fact that we have a large influx of women in higher-paid occupations, right now they're at low entry level positions because they're....
Sorry.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
Sylvie Boucher Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Good morning to all our witnesses.
Your comments are very interesting. Of course, everyone knows that pay equity is a fundamental right for all women. As parliamentarians, we at least have a job where we receive equal pay for equal work.
I have several questions, because I don't have a union background. These are questions I often ask because I would like someone to enlighten me.
The primary purpose of unions is to defend their members. So far, I'm right. One thing bothers me. though. When the time comes for female members to sit down with employers, which is what you do, unions have trouble ensuring that women have the same rights and the same wages under the collective agreement. That's what I'm hearing in your testimony.
I have never been unionized. So I'm asking you to answer this. Why, when you're a union member, is it so hard to sit down with employers and say that a woman who does essentially the same work as a man who earns $15 an hour, say, also has the right to earn $15 an hour, and to ask that this be included in a collective agreement, to prevent any potential split?
Could one of you answer that please?
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Cathy McLeod
We have Mr. Durber waiting to answer. We'll start with Mr. Durber, who I think put his hand up first, and then go to Mr. Farrell.
9:50 a.m.
Senior Consultant, Opus Mundi Canada
Ms. Boucher, I think there's a problem with the legislation governing collective agreements, because every union has the right to bargain only on behalf of its own members. If those members are all women, a union cannot negotiate based on comparisons with jobs not covered by the bargaining unit. So, there is no possibility of comparing that female unit with a male unit. Pay equity therefore has to be facilitated through other legislation.
There is a Supreme Court ruling on this. Air Canada is another longstanding example that could be informative in that regard.
9:55 a.m.
Executive Director, Federally Regulated Employers - Transportation and Communications (FETCO)
Yes, I'll defer to Ms. Gagné, who's with me.
October 28th, 2010 / 9:55 a.m.
Barbara Gagné Representative, Manager, Labour Relations and Classification for Nav Canada, Federally Regulated Employers - Transportation and Communications (FETCO)
We are for a proactive problem-solving approach, and have proposed that the relationship between the unions and the employers does not only occur at the bargaining table once every two or three years, or whatever the duration of your bargaining cycle is. It's every day. And in order to determine relativity, there are many practices within an HR program that would allow the unions and the employer to work together, such as job evaluation plans that will allow you to evaluate jobs as they are created or changed, to bring together the parties to discuss the classification and therefore the ultimate compensation within the scheme outside of a bargaining process. We would advocate that you can have a positive relationship. You can bring people together. It does not have to be an adversarial relationship and it doesn't happen only at collective bargaining.
Definitely when you get to the point of a collective bargaining cycle, you have to prepare, and that is when analysis and so on can be done and looked at in terms of determining whether there is a gender gap and therefore what you have to do in terms of the wages going forward.
9:55 a.m.
Bloc
Roger Gaudet Bloc Montcalm, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Mr. Durber, earlier you didn't have time to complete your answer on the current situation. You said that Canada wasn't ready to implement pay equity. Did I get that right?
9:55 a.m.
Bloc
Roger Gaudet Bloc Montcalm, QC
Earlier you didn't complete your answer on pay equity. You said that as things now stand in Canada, pay equity cannot be implemented. Is that correct?
9:55 a.m.
Senior Consultant, Opus Mundi Canada
Between the federal government and the provinces?
9:55 a.m.
Senior Consultant, Opus Mundi Canada
As I see it, the problem is that our laws do not facilitate pay equity. That is also the case in the private sector. Given that the Human Rights Act does not require a proactive approach, we have to wait for complaints to be made.
Personally, I was involved in a complaint that the Human Rights Commission refused to refer to their tribunal. So, because of the number of women involved—about two dozen—we had no choice but to drop the case. That is difficult to understand.
In the Air Canada case that I referred to, it is quite probable that it will not be possible to pursue the case because investigators have inadequate information about the work involved. Under the current regime, employers are probably not required to provide work-related data. As a result, there is no way of determining the value of the work and, therefore, of estimating the wage gap. In Quebec, however, as you are well aware, the system in place provides for both parties to cooperate and arrive at an agreement in good faith. So action has to be taken.