Evidence of meeting #33 for Status of Women in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pay.
A recording is available from Parliament.
10:10 a.m.
Senior Consultant, Opus Mundi Canada
This is going to be really fast.
Page 97 of the task force report will give you very interesting information on relative disadvantages to women in terms of additional experience. I think that might be very interesting. There is a whole table there.
10:10 a.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Cathy McLeod
We will have time now for a three-minute round, which means three minutes for questions and answers, and then we will have to deal with a motion after that.
We'll start our three-minute round with Ms. Ratansi.
10:10 a.m.
Liberal
Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON
Thank you very much.
My question is to you, Mr. Durber, because you've been a consultant on pay equity in the public sector.
I was a little confused about the questions being posed, because in my understanding, pay equity means you are paid equally for the work that you do, whether you're a junior draftsman or a senior draftsman. If I'm a partner in a law firm, what I make is equal to what another male partner makes. That's the premise. It doesn't relate to whether you're at the entry level or the top level--there will always be a difference--but it's everyone in a profession.
In the public sector, how many visible minorities are there? Do you have any idea? We understand that visible minorities are always paid less than whatever, so could you comment on that?
10:10 a.m.
Senior Consultant, Opus Mundi Canada
I can't give you the statistics, although the Treasury Board puts out annual reports on that. I can say that there is a comment in the task force report on the issue of visible minorities and the pay differentials that are found, as you say. That has not been part of the Canadian Human Rights Act directly, but it can be gotten at indirectly by doing systemic analysis. It is very much more complicated than pay equity.
10:10 a.m.
Liberal
Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON
That's fine.
When we talk about human rights, I think there was a response in the status of women report on pay equity in 2004. I think it was a very good report because it basically balances out that pay equity is separate from bargaining rights because they are two separate issues.
Bill C-471 deals with those issues. I'd like you to comment on how that would help or enhance equality between genders and equality among different Canadians.
October 28th, 2010 / 10:10 a.m.
Senior Consultant, Opus Mundi Canada
As Ms. Pageau mentioned, the task force report also includes comments on aboriginals, visible minorities, and disabled people. In respect, I think Bill C-471, by its reference to the task force report, has a broader ambit than section 11 of the Canadian Human Rights Act, and it is absolutely broader than the PSECA, which covers essentially gender.
10:10 a.m.
Liberal
10:15 a.m.
Liberal
Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON
Ms. Cornish, I have one question for you.
You were talking about the pay equity legislation. Was it Ontario you were talking about? Why did it get eliminated? It was a very progressive move.
10:15 a.m.
Chair, Equal Pay Coalition of Ontario
No, I was talking about the employment equity legislation, which was eliminated in 1995. It had a proactive mechanism for looking at the kinds of barriers you're talking about. The Pay Equity Act remains in place.
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for taking time and coming here. Certainly all of us do appreciate your time and your presentations.
As you know, my time is limited. I have just three minutes.
I have a very short question for Statistics Canada. The hourly wage gap, as you know, is larger in non-unionized jobs than in unionized jobs. Could you please explain the difference?
10:15 a.m.
Research Economist, Income Statistics Division, Statistics Canada
I think the unionized wage ratio is upwards of 90¢ without adjusting for anything and non-unionized is just below 78¢ or 80¢.
One factor is that unions are more likely to have pay structures that are public, and that could explain why the wage gap within unionized sectors is smaller.
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Okay, would anyone else like to answer the same question?
10:15 a.m.
Chair, Equal Pay Coalition of Ontario
I think some of the reasons the gap hasn't closed is that there wasn't an effective mechanism in place under CHRA, because even in complaint-based, unions are better able to use it. Certainly in Ontario, even using the proactive law, unionization still remains one of the most effective ways to close the pay gap, just by itself, because generally when women are unionized their wages rise and the pay gap closes, and it doesn't require them to file a complaint.
10:15 a.m.
Human Rights Director, Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada
The other thing with unionization is that we will represent the women and the workers and take it through the processes, whereas non-unionized groups are working all by themselves.
10:15 a.m.
Bloc
Nicole Demers Bloc Laval, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Ms. Drolet, I'd like you to complete your answer to Ms. Brown. Through your research, have you been able to determine if it's really a matter of personal choice?
10:15 a.m.
Research Economist, Income Statistics Division, Statistics Canada
I think what I referred to when I said there was a remaining gap is we don't know what goes into that remaining gap. It could be choice-based, that people choose certain occupations because they have a preference for the type of work or the types of responsibilities on one hand. On the other hand, we don't know if it's some sort of expectations-based. If you think way back to your pre-labour-market experiences, are you going into certain levels of education, major fields of study, based on some sort of expectation based on gender? So that's a case in which your pre-labour-market behaviour affects your outcomes, which are wages. So for that unexplained portion, that portion of the wage gap that went up to 90¢, a lot of things are going on.
We may not have measured the appropriate skills that could account for some of the pay gap. It could be choice-based, it could be preference-based, it could be differential treatment by the employers against women, I guess. There are a lot of things going into it. It's a label, that unexplained component as a measure of labour market discrimination.You need to consider a lot of things first before labelling it as such.
10:15 a.m.
Bloc
Nicole Demers Bloc Laval, QC
Thank you.
There is a dispute at Canada Post which has been going on for 43 years, I believe. At Bell Canada, it lasted 22 years. Are you able to quantify the employer's investment in legal services?
10:15 a.m.
Human Rights Director, Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada
I can tell you that, on our side, the Bell case cost us between $4 and $5 million for the services of one lawyer and one assistant. Bell had seven lawyers attending the hearings every single day. So, if it cost us between $4 and $5 million, I can't even imagine what it cost Bell for its lawyers and consultants.
10:20 a.m.
Human Rights Director, Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada
That's right. I'd like to add something to what was said about women doctors. I suggest that you consult the record of hearings that took place here in May of 2009. I was in the room when three women doctors, with between 10 and 25 years of experience, stated that they do not enjoy pay equity either. There was a very good discussion on the reasons behind that.
So, even though there are now more women in the medical and legal professions, for instance, there are still problems, even after so many years. I suggest that you read the report.