Evidence of meeting #51 for Status of Women in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was family.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sergeant Mike Bartkus  Domestic Offender Crimes Section, Edmonton Police Service
Josie Nepinak  Executive Director, Awo Taan Healing Lodge Society
Donald Langford  Executive Director, Métis Child and Family Services Society
Jo-Anne Hansen  Representative, Little Warriors
Nancy Leake  Criminal Intelligence Analyst, Serious Crimes Branch, Edmonton Police Service
Kari Thomason  Community Outreach Worker, Métis Child and Family Services Society
Bill Spinks  Serious Crime Branch, Edmonton Police Service
Jo-Anne Fiske  Professor of Women's Studies, University of Lethbridge, As an Individual
Suzanne Dzus  Founder and Chairperson, Memorial March for Missing and Murdered Women Calgary
Superintendent Mike Sekela  Criminal Operations Officer, "D" Division, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
April Wiberg  Founder, Stolen Sisters Awareness Walk and Movement
Gloria Neapetung  Representative, Stolen Sisters Awareness Walk and Movement
Sandra Lambertus  Author, As an Individual
Jennifer Koshan  Professor, University of Calgary, As an Individual
Muriel Stanley Venne  President and Founder, Institute for the Advancement of Aboriginal Women

9:15 a.m.

Executive Director, Awo Taan Healing Lodge Society

Josie Nepinak

Certainly, I believe there's a lot of hope in our aboriginal communities across the country and there's a lot of wisdom. I think we're building on those areas and certainly keeping families together. Can you imagine a mother losing her two or three children and being told that she's not a good parent?

To me, being a mother, I could never imagine that. But imagine what that would do. In this province, 64% of the children are aboriginal children, and in some places, such as Manitoba, I believe that as high as 80% of our aboriginal kids are in care. So, yes, we've eliminated the residential schools, but we see the legacy of that, which continues. Now we're going to see another legacy of our children who are in care.

If we take the time and invest in our families to keep them together, then we'll be a lot further in society, I bet you, 20 years down the road. So we need to work to keep the families together.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Acting Chair Conservative Dona Cadman

Thank you, Ms. Grewal. Your time is up. Sorry. Maybe you'll get a chance later.

Madame Demers, you have five minutes.

9:15 a.m.

Bloc

Nicole Demers Bloc Laval, QC

Mr. Bartkus, I found your answer to my colleague Ms. Neville very interesting and I would like to continue along the same lines.

In the places we have visited, when there is a lot of racism in the police forces, one of the problems is also likely a lack of people, a lack of education and a lack of training. You said that you need more people and more training; more police officers, in fact, not more prisons.

You also talked about initiatives for people in custody, from the time they are taken into custody to the time they are convicted. Could you expand on that a little? Are you talking about restorative justice or community initiatives? Could you expand on that a little? Can you offer us any suggestions that we could use to make people and the police—say in Williams Lake or Prince Albert—understand that they would be much further ahead working with communities than against them?

9:20 a.m.

S/Sgt Mike Bartkus

Yes, I probably have a different outlook on this situation because I've been involved in this sort of work for many years, on the child protection side and now in domestic violence. I believe we have to address the issues of vulnerable persons in our community. Violence is still considered a viable option in peoples' lives, and there has to be some sort of paradigm shift. There has to be some educational component that tells people to stop, that it's not appropriate.

As a policing organization we have become desensitized because of the volume of work that is out there, because of the level of violence that we see perpetuated against people day in, day out. We've grown accustomed. We've made allowances. We've had to set thresholds with respect to what we'll investigate and what we won't investigate. We'll investigate assault causing bodily harm, but we can't look after assaults. You know what? We'll do the aggravated assaults, but we won't do the assaults with a firearm.

This is the world I live in now. It has become so complex and so busy that we have to make certain allowances within the confines of our own organization because we don't have enough resources. Do we need more resources? I'm not sure. I think there has to be a bit of a paradigm shift in terms of what we believe is important to us as a community. If the focus is vulnerable persons and family violence, I think that may alleviate a lot of the issues that we see, that we're dealing with now in the long term. I maintain this fact, and I've maintained it my entire career as a police officer for 25 years: you spend 85% of your time going into people's homes. It's not responding to bank robberies and the calls that maybe police officers think they're going to answer when they're young and impressionable. When they get old and bald like me, they realize that it's really important to learn how to talk to people.

So I think we have to get back to basics. You win the hearts and minds of people through their trust.

9:20 a.m.

Inspector Bill Spinks Serious Crime Branch, Edmonton Police Service

I think one thing that really prevents us from being able to stop the cycle of violence is that there's a lack of education within the court system itself, and I say that with the utmost respect. We continuously arrest individuals and bring them before courts, and often what's relied upon in assessing whether or not a person should be released back into the community is their criminal record. But we know that some of the most dangerous and high-risk situations involve individuals who have no criminal record. We apply or attempt to apply science, in partnership with the University of Alberta psychology department, to form risk assessments and to provide these risk assessments to the courts before these individuals even get to trial. So our most dangerous time is when somebody is brought before the court to speak to bail. If the person is released, a whole number, a plethora, of negative events can happen.

So I believe we need, perhaps through the federal government, to start some legislation along the lines of encouraging the court systems to rely upon science rather than on old criminal records, which really are useless.

We were just working on a case yesterday in which an individual had no criminal record, but in which, in consultation with a doctor from the psychology department at the U of A, we were able to develop a risk assessment tool that we provided to the courts. That individual is still in jail, and we know that is probably going to save a woman's life.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Acting Chair Conservative Dona Cadman

Thank you, Mr. Spinks.

Thank you, Ms. Demers.

Now we go to Ms. Crowder. You have five minutes.

9:25 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Thank you.

I just want to touch on something Ms. Nepinak mentioned about the three levels of government and jurisdictional issues. Of course, we see this over and over again. Right now, in fact, some of us would argue that there is forced assimilation going on as people are forced to leave their home communities, their reserve communities, and are forced into large urban centres, where there is certainly inadequate funding from the federal government to deal with urban aboriginal peoples. Oftentimes the government will say that now that you're no longer on reserve, you're a provincial responsibility, and in some provinces you actually have become a municipal responsibility, because in some provinces social services have been downloaded to the municipal level.

Given that your recommendation is that the three levels of government find a way to work together, can you make any suggestions? It's a mess. We see it in all kinds of areas. We see it in health care. We see it in education. We see it in the criminal justice system. The federal government is very happy--and this is not a partisan comment, because this has been going on for decades and it's not new--to offload it to the provinces and tell them it's their problem.

Do you have any suggestions?

9:25 a.m.

Executive Director, Awo Taan Healing Lodge Society

Josie Nepinak

I'm not sure what the final answer is on that. However, if we are to develop strategies and solutions towards the reduction of family violence in aboriginal communities, there is a need for the governments to come together. How they're going to do it—I'm sure they'll wrestle around that for quite some time yet. I think there needs to be more pressure, whether it comes from our elected officials or whoever should be involved, and there needs to be discussion. The first nations women, for example, who are coming into shelters in this province represent more than 60%.

9:25 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Do you have any sense of how many of them are coming from reserve communities and coming to the city? Many reserves, of course, don't have safe houses, and they have no supports for women who are subject to domestic violence.

9:25 a.m.

Executive Director, Awo Taan Healing Lodge Society

Josie Nepinak

Right. According to our statistics at Awo Taan, up to 67% are coming from first nations communities into the shelter.

9:25 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

They're forced out of their community. They've got nowhere else to go, so they come to an urban centre where they're then subject to all kinds of other factors. Then they end up in the shelters.

9:25 a.m.

Executive Director, Awo Taan Healing Lodge Society

Josie Nepinak

They end up in the shelters. Their homelessness, of course, is huge. Poverty is huge. Of course, with that comes some criminal activity; child welfare becomes involved; police are involved. There are many systems that become involved in that process. But if we are to develop those solutions, I'm not sure how to get the three levels of government to the table. I think it would be honourable for that to happen, but I think we can just keep putting on some pressure and talking and educating them about the issues as well.

9:25 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

One of the things that drives people is money, right? So we can often get governments to sit up and pay attention when we talk about how much it's going to cost. Do any of you have any sense of what it costs each level of government to deal with an individual? You can use just sort of a typical individual.

Staff Sargeant?

9:25 a.m.

S/Sgt Mike Bartkus

I believe it costs $1.2 million to investigate a homicide from start to finish. That was the last statistic I received. It's a lot less to do preventive work and get in front of these situations before they turn ugly. We spend a lot of money and allocate a lot of resources to investigating homicides, and not as much towards family violence. I think that's representative of most organizations nationally.

9:30 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

So we're dealing with the end of the problem.

Am I out of time?

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Acting Chair Conservative Dona Cadman

You've got one minute.

9:30 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

What we end up dealing with is the end of the problem. We end up dealing with the domestic violence.

Mr. Langford.

9:30 a.m.

Executive Director, Métis Child and Family Services Society

Donald Langford

We're big business, okay. It costs over $340 per day to maintain a high-needs kid in a group home.

9:30 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

What could that $340 per day do for the family, if they had a family?

9:30 a.m.

Executive Director, Métis Child and Family Services Society

Donald Langford

It could do an awful lot for the family, but nobody wants to talk about it. You're paying $100 a day to keep a child in foster care. I'm paying some of my foster parents $6,000 a month tax-free to look after four or five children. Just think, if we gave $2,000 to that family and provided some supervision and some guidance and support, how they could survive. We're putting the money in the wrong place. Unfortunately, in the justice system and child care system, we're big business.

Thank you.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Acting Chair Conservative Dona Cadman

Thank you, Mr. Langford.

You're out of time, Ms. Crowder.

Thank you very much to you all for attending. We're really running short on time. I did have a question, but I think I'll go over and ask you after this. Thank you.

We're suspended.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Acting Chair Conservative Dona Cadman

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), this is a study of violence against aboriginal women. Today we have, as an individual, Jo-Anne Fiske; from Memorial March for Missing and Murdered Women Calgary, Suzanne Dzus; from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Mike Sekela; and from Stolen Sisters Awareness Walk and Movement, April Eve P. Wiberg and Gloria Neapetung.

Each of you will have seven minutes. When you have two minutes remaining, I will hold up my hand and wave, so please look up every once in a while. And if I'm going like this, then you're really close, so wrap it up very quickly. Thank you.

We will start with Ms. Fiske.

9:35 a.m.

Dr. Jo-Anne Fiske Professor of Women's Studies, University of Lethbridge, As an Individual

Good morning, and thank you, Madam Chairman.

I'm very pleased to have been invited to have this opportunity to meet with you. It's an honour to be sitting here with the aboriginal women who are representing their communities.

I want to address specifically the violence in urban areas, and I want to do so based on three of my experiences, which I think bring me as a qualified speaker.

First, I have been a university professor now for some 30 years, working exclusively on issues dealing with aboriginal women across Canada. I'm both an anthropologist and a professor of women's studies currently at the University of Lethbridge.

Second, for a long time I have been a member of aboriginal communities as an anthropologist and through extended kinship networks. I seasonally live on the Highway of Tears in northern British Columbia and have lost people who are very dear to me, and I have suffered the pain of seeing young children violated by members of urban communities because they know these children are vulnerable and they can count on people not caring.

Third, I believe I can speak to this issue with a great deal of knowledge because I have just recently completed studies in urban areas specifically dealing with the reception of first nations women as they leave reserves and move into urban areas. Over the past 10 years, I have witnessed this transition and the responses of urban communities when aboriginal women, and most specifically first nations women from reserves, move into their neighbourhood.

When I look at the violence, I am concerned about the violence that is not perpetrated within the family. You heard very eloquently this morning about family violence. I'm concerned and wish to speak to you today about the violence that aboriginal women and young girls experience at the hands of outsiders to their community. The downtown east side, where I resided once, is perhaps the most infamous example of what happens to the most vulnerable when they move to the cities.

There are a number of reasons why urban aboriginal women are so vulnerable. We have to remember that 72% of aboriginal women are urban residents. In fact, the urban areas have higher rates of violence against women than in other communities.

The most compelling reasons that I think we need to deal with in order to understand the violence in urban areas are, first of all, prevailing attitudes, failure of authorities, and the wide public indifference to aboriginal women. We need to do nothing more than look in this room at the empty space for the media to realize that that indifference is writ large.

It's absence, total absence of media, and I know that's not been the only experience you've had where the media have not paid attention. And it's impoverishment.

To begin with the issues of public authorities, we heard this morning about the very difficult and painful job of policing where there are high levels of interpersonal violence, and we know that this can, in fact, desensitize, as was expressed by the representative of the Edmonton police. But that desensitization is only part of the problem. In research on all levels of official interaction with communities--whether it's health, education, the correctional system, the courts, etc.--we find that aboriginal women are discredited. Our research shows over and over again that they are not seen as valued citizens. This attitude is picked up and expressed over and over again in media.

When women go missing on Highway 16, if it's a young, blonde woman...as was the case in my home community, where one of my neighbours lost a child just recently, and that child's picture was on the first or second page in every paper in the nation for days. At the same time, one of my extended family members was found dead, and the only comment in the paper was that she was found dead where prostitutes were known to be. Well, thank you just the same, but it's also where I walk my dog and play with my granddaughter and have other family activities. The fact that it was a public park was never mentioned. Her name was not mentioned--a grievous problem with media, public education, and the authorities that so identified her. Her name has not been in the papers again. Interestingly enough, she was related to a young child who was savagely beaten by a former judge of Prince George who'd had a reign of terror over aboriginal women and their girls for years before he was brought to justice.

Finally, I want to talk about impoverishment. I want to talk about impoverishment on three levels. First, and most significantly, is the impoverishment of Canada consequent upon the colonialism, the biases, the outrageous discrimination. There's an impoverishment of imagination. There's an impoverishment of understanding citizenship. There's an impoverishment of recognizing what aboriginal women have contributed and can continue to contribute to our country. And there's an impoverishment of empathy for the vulnerable.

There is a money impoverishment that makes their transitions to cities so difficult, when it is so necessary. I'll give you one example. In the city in which I'm doing research about a transition home, women attempted to set up a transition home to bring women in to upper education programs and children's education programs from a nearby reserve. They have literally been harassed and run out of the community, and the mayor of that city recently said, “We must take back our communities and parks.” It's attitude. We need education programs across the nation, very broadly, and we need government action that takes responsibility for directing the citizens at large.

Thank you.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Acting Chair Conservative Dona Cadman

Thanks Jo-Anne.

Now we have Suzanne from Memorial March for Missing and Murdered Women in Calgary. You have seven minutes.

9:40 a.m.

Suzanne Dzus Founder and Chairperson, Memorial March for Missing and Murdered Women Calgary

Tansi .

I am a Cree and Mohawk woman from the Michel First Nation. My colonial name is Suzanne Dzus, and I am the founder of the Memorial March for Missing and Murdered Women in Calgary. I'm also a program coordinator and a facilitator within the Treaty 7 region.

We are an organization whose objectives include raising the awareness of peoples across Turtle Island in addition to honouring those women who have been taken long before their time. This morning I asked the Creator and my grandmothers to join us today that I may speak what needs to be said, but also that they aid this committee in hearing what must be done in order to incite true change.

Much of what I know has been given to me through stories shared by families and other women, as well as through my own experience. The stories have many similar elements: the lack of education, the lack of appropriate and accessible services, racism, normalization of violence, sexual assaults, and the acceptability of sexual assault. There are levels, and it has become unmitigatingly devastating for most young women.

The apprehension of our children that began with the sixties scoop still continues today. There's the marginalization, and there is the continuous and bombarding media that not only objectifies our women but sexualizes them at an extremely early age. All of these pieces are and have been controlled by Canada's nation state.

What I bring you here today is nothing that you don't already know and have not been told by many people long before me. Cases in point are the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples in 1966 and the Amnesty International report Stolen Sisters in 2004. They speak volumes to the root causes of violence against aboriginal women.

There's the continuation of supported racism and sexism our women experience daily at the hands of society and government agencies, such as the RCMP. When the organization charged with protecting us displays a blatant disregard for our safety and well-being, how can the resulting ripple effect in our society be anything but detrimental to our aboriginal women?

I do not believe this committee requires any more information. It is required to take action and no longer contribute to the continued victimization of aboriginal women. What I ask of you today is the commitment to incite true change. If band-aid solutions are all this research is willing to propose, then we're wasting our time and precious energy.

The first point of action is that all policing organizations be held accountable for their handling of investigations into the disappearance and murder of all aboriginal women. Saying “Sorry, we handled that poorly” is no longer acceptable. The apologies that went with the Pickton case were an aberration. The fact that he was allowed to continue for as many years as he did speaks volumes to the lack of respect and the lack of.... I've lost the word, but it speaks to the willingness of our policing systems to look at aboriginals and portray aboriginal women as second-rate citizens. That ripple effect is felt throughout our communities all across this country. This is not a new piece, and if you speak to aboriginal women on the streets, they know it and will share it with you. They don't go to the police because they'll get it worse there. I've heard that from them. They will not go. It's easier to handle what's going on themselves than to phone and be disregarded again.

On the second point of action, perpetrators must be held accountable for the violence against women and the parameters and description of violence to truly reflect the abuse women experience. Violence against women is not simply the hitting, slapping, punching, biting, shooting, beating, and raping. It's also about the words and descriptions we use for those women. It's our disregard for their human lives. That has to be addressed.

Finally, services must reflect the true needs of aboriginal women in Canada, both urban and rural. I ask today that you move forward and incite true change.

Hai, hai.