Evidence of meeting #51 for Status of Women in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was family.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sergeant Mike Bartkus  Domestic Offender Crimes Section, Edmonton Police Service
Josie Nepinak  Executive Director, Awo Taan Healing Lodge Society
Donald Langford  Executive Director, Métis Child and Family Services Society
Jo-Anne Hansen  Representative, Little Warriors
Nancy Leake  Criminal Intelligence Analyst, Serious Crimes Branch, Edmonton Police Service
Kari Thomason  Community Outreach Worker, Métis Child and Family Services Society
Bill Spinks  Serious Crime Branch, Edmonton Police Service
Jo-Anne Fiske  Professor of Women's Studies, University of Lethbridge, As an Individual
Suzanne Dzus  Founder and Chairperson, Memorial March for Missing and Murdered Women Calgary
Superintendent Mike Sekela  Criminal Operations Officer, "D" Division, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
April Wiberg  Founder, Stolen Sisters Awareness Walk and Movement
Gloria Neapetung  Representative, Stolen Sisters Awareness Walk and Movement
Sandra Lambertus  Author, As an Individual
Jennifer Koshan  Professor, University of Calgary, As an Individual
Muriel Stanley Venne  President and Founder, Institute for the Advancement of Aboriginal Women

12:15 p.m.

Professor, University of Calgary, As an Individual

Prof. Jennifer Koshan

I think there is. You can have a piece of legislation that has important general principles that may be broadly applicable, but then the legislation can be implemented through different sets of regulations and different policies and practices. It's at that level of policy and practices that issues of diversity can be taken into account and tailored to the needs of particular communities.

12:15 p.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

With regard to the matrimonial and real property legislation, although it's not applicable for people who have developed custom code, it is a one-size-fits-all and it's across provincial boundaries. A lot of it's going to be reliant on provincial legislation until people develop their own custom codes.

12:15 p.m.

Professor, University of Calgary, As an Individual

Prof. Jennifer Koshan

But I think there are ways to meaningfully implement those broader principles at the community level, and it's really important for that to happen.

12:15 p.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Muriel, you look as though you want to say something about this.

12:15 p.m.

President and Founder, Institute for the Advancement of Aboriginal Women

Muriel Stanley Venne

Yes. The consultation and the representation can easily be addressed by giving the representative the resources to consult with her own women. It's not impossible. You don't send someone there out of the blue; you send them there empowered with the voice of the women, and those are resources to consult with the women. That makes a lot of sense to me.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you.

It's now one minute past your leaving time, so thank you very much for doing that.

We have nine minutes left. I think it would be pretty difficult to do a three-minute round in that time, so I would like to go back to the question that was asked by Dona—was it Dona who asked it?—about the percentage of aboriginal women in the population, etc.

Sandra.

12:20 p.m.

Author, As an Individual

Dr. Sandra Lambertus

These statistics still need to be updated, but at the time of the 2001 Statistics Canada census, Canada's aboriginal population was about 1,066,500, representing 3.4% of Canada's population; however, the population is growing faster than the total population. The highest concentrations will continue to grow, particularly in the prairies and the north. In 2001, Alberta's aboriginal population was approximately 200,000, representing about 5% of Alberta's population. The median age of aboriginal people in Canada and in Alberta was about 12 years younger than the median age of Canadians overall.

I hope that gives some context.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Does that answer what you wanted to know, Dona, or is there something else?

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Dona Cadman Conservative Surrey North, BC

Not really.

12:20 p.m.

Author, As an Individual

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Dona Cadman Conservative Surrey North, BC

It was really just women. I wanted to know how many women. Did they not do a census on that?

12:20 p.m.

Author, As an Individual

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Dona Cadman Conservative Surrey North, BC

You're lumped in with the men?

12:20 p.m.

Author, As an Individual

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Julie said that she could give you that information on the 2006 census. Would that be more accurate?

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Dona Cadman Conservative Surrey North, BC

Yes, that would be better.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

But I think you also wanted to know if there was a woman, and I think it was answered subsequently in different venues that there is no one women, no more than we would expect that for non-aboriginal women we're going to find one women to represent them all. I think it's about looking at communities.

I wanted to ask a question since we have about four minutes left. We were discussing amongst ourselves last night because we heard so many things that are really overwhelming. We're hearing them, and they are beginning to filter in to some really common issues that we can see—systemic racism, etc., and all those kinds of things. Then we said, but what do we do? What is it we can do? Many of them are so terribly complex.

When you talk about things—and I'd like to direct part of this to Jennifer, as a constitutional law expert—when you talk about taking children away from their parents, we hear this is a provincial jurisdiction. This is a question. How do we do something, as a federal government, when it is within provincial jurisdiction?

We have also heard, for instance, that if you wanted to take the man and move him out of the offending home—the violent man—in fact, you might be able to do it in urban areas or off reserve, but on reserve it is sometimes impossible, again because of ownership of the home and a whole lot of other things. Also, where does he go in the community if you kick him out? So quite a lot of times the women run away into the cities, where they're again under provincial jurisdiction. For many of us, the apprehension of children was a seminal problem, really, because it continued the violence generation after generation, knowing that about 45% of all children in any violent household either tend to become violent themselves or marry or hook up with people who are potentially violent.

So my question is this. How do we break the cycle? The cycle breaking is the first thing. I want to hear from you, Jennifer. Under the Constitution, does the province have jurisdiction over aboriginal peoples to that extent? Has the federal government a role to play in taking care of this issue and looking at apprehension of aboriginal children and stopping it, or whatever is necessary to do? That is a huge piece that I have not understood.

What is the role of the federal government and what is its responsibility toward aboriginal people, both off reserve and on reserve? You might have some answers for that.

Secondly—and I know we've talked about this around and around—the social worker is saying, “But I have to protect this kid because there's violence and the mother is addicted, cannot look after the child, is neglectful, and doesn't have a place to live.” I mean, we know the answers: give her a place to live, etc. The question is, what are the things we can do that are concrete, that can get to the heart of this whole vicious cycle of apprehending children and of trapping women in violent situations with no way out?

12:55 p.m.

Professor, University of Calgary, As an Individual

Prof. Jennifer Koshan

I'll address the constitutional part of your question, and then I think perhaps Muriel is the best person to talk more specifically about those concrete solutions.

The federal government clearly has jurisdiction over aboriginal peoples. The provincial government has jurisdiction over children's services. I think the problem occurs when we see an intersection of those two issues. I don't think there would be anything stopping the federal government from passing a law that related to children's services for aboriginal peoples, but--

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

And that would be constitutionally valid?

12:55 p.m.

Professor, University of Calgary, As an Individual

Prof. Jennifer Koshan

I think it would, if the law was seen as being aimed at aboriginal peoples and your jurisdiction there. I think that would be fine.

At the same time, though, I don't know that it's necessary to go to that stage of passing a specialized law. I think what's important is for there to be cooperation between the governments. We've heard a little bit about that in other venues this morning, but there have been instances where the federal, provincial, and territorial ministers have gotten together and developed common protocols and common policies to try to deal with issues like domestic violence and child sexual abuse.

I think the area of violence against aboriginal women is an area where there really is a need to have that sort of cross-jurisdictional response, so it's great that the federal government has this committee doing its work. But it needs to now be coordinated with provincial and municipal levels as well.

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you.

I have just one quick follow-up on that, because that is a piece.... In health, in fact, we know that if you are off reserve you carry a card that allows you to access provincial health services readily even though you're off reserve. The local provincial health services will look after you. You're suggesting that there might be ways to work out those same protocols with children.

12:55 p.m.

Professor, University of Calgary, As an Individual

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Muriel, a concrete step...?

12:55 p.m.

President and Founder, Institute for the Advancement of Aboriginal Women

Muriel Stanley Venne

Well, I really believe that we have to take the preventative measures and reach, as we are at this moment...we have a program for young girls. I think the lack of programs has resulted in all of these bad statistics. I've said this: if you have no money, you have no rights. So I think the answer with regard to what can be done at the community level is to empower the women themselves and to work with the existing organizations to carry out their mandates.

It's not a complicated answer. We know this is not complicated, in the sense that if you give the resources to the people who can address the issues, things will happen.

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you very much.

We have one minute left. I want to thank all of you for coming and presenting, and because we have one minute left, I'm going to divide that into 20 seconds and ask Sandra, Jennifer, and Muriel to each give me one thing you want to leave with this committee that for you is the most important priority.

In 20 seconds, Sandra.