Status of Women Committee on April 23rd, 2012

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Truppe.

We shall now move to the official opposition.

Ms. Ashton, you have seven minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Paulson, for being here today.

I wanted to start off by noting that I have the honour of representing a constituency in which, in fact, all of our communities are serviced by the RCMP. As somebody who is from northern Manitoba, I know from many of my peers the kind of evolution we've seen with respect to the force's connection with local communities, with aboriginal communities, and with the ongoing need to reflect the people the force serves, particularly in hiring aboriginal, first nations, and Métis officers. It is something that certainly isn't going unnoticed. We look forward to seeing much of the same and to continuing to move forward.

With respect to the issue that we're focusing on today, I would certainly like to note the fact—and you alluded to it—of the way it really shook the Canadian society at its core. We believe in and we have faith in the work of the RCMP, and we'd like to know that the officers putting their safety on the line are also able to work in a workplace where their safety is very much respected. However, when we heard the allegations, and certainly with the stories that have come forward by many women and the understanding that there are many others, this represents a real insecurity and a real concern in terms of where we're going.

I want to particularly note that for myself as a young woman, and for many of my peers who are either in the force or looking at potentially getting involved in the RCMP, this is definitely a dissuasion. I have heard that it's something that really affects their decision as to how long they might stay in this kind of a workplace. That's the wrong direction. We have made great gains in Canada, and certainly we have seen this with respect to the RCMP in terms of gender representation, but I believe this is a step back, which we need to learn from and learn from immediately, as soon as possible.

I want to go back to the initial comment you made with respect to the aquarium. I thought that was a very interesting analogy, and I appreciated that you raised it right off the bat. Many of us do think it's a question of culture, a male culture that has allowed for harassment—sexual, physical, mental, emotional—to take place as though it's the norm. I believe that, as we seek to tackle that, there is perhaps an intangible element to it. I would like to know, as you move forward—and you noted some of the steps you are taking—what exactly is being done to be able to change that culture?

[Commr Robert Paulson]

Thank you for your comments and your question.

Culture changing has been central to the RCMP discussion for the past five or six years. Since the Brown task force people have been talking about culture change, so it's a perfectly legitimate question.

I think that a culture is a reflection of the actions of a group of people, so I concentrate on changing the actions of the employees of the RCMP. You do that through what I've talked about already—some of my leadership initiatives and the accountability exercises—but also through having a policy framework and a rule framework within the organization that gives strength to the ideas and the culture you're trying to shape. In other words, there needs to be a respectful workplace and a sense of fairness when it comes to decisions around transfers, promotions, recognition, or any of the things where people are compared one against another. That is absolutely vital to creating that culture of fairness.

I think the problem extends past the women-men issue, although one of the first steps is to recognize you have a problem, and I'm here to recognize that we have a problem with how women thrive within the organization. But it goes to other portions of our organization too. Having policies and functioning systems that people can rely upon, outside of the individual decision-maker, gives them the confidence to know.... It's almost like the rule of law in the organization. Our policies and our practices are being reviewed so that we can establish that sense of fairness.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

On some of the specifics, you referenced the gender-based audit, which was also brought up at the public safety committee. Could you elaborate on what that entails?

[Commr Robert Paulson]

Thank you.

My commanding officer in British Columbia was referred to just recently. Deputy Commissioner Callens did a sort of informal one. He had some of his staff interview 400 female members to put some information, facts, and scope around the problem.

This audit will examine our policies and practices on the engagement of women and the advancement of women. Retention is surprisingly not a problem with women in the RCMP. We have a greater retention rate for women than for men. So we've scoped out the retention issue, but we're going to put some science behind how we understand that. For example, how do our policies support women or disadvantage women with respect to promotions and transfers? If their choice is to raise a family, are they disadvantaged because they're not mobile? What are we doing about that?

Those are the kinds of specific policies that affect people and give them options to live productive lives as citizens, but also contribute as members of the RCMP. That audit will come back to me by August with data, conclusions, and recommendations.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Thank you, Mr. Paulson.

I will now give the floor to the government side.

Ms. James, you have seven minutes.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Commissioner Paulson, for being here today. We've certainly been looking forward to being able to address the questions we have.

When I think of the status of women and what we are trying to achieve on this committee, I think of three things: gender equality, respect for women, and encouraging and empowering young girls to succeed.

Having said that, I first want to say that I have the greatest respect for the RCMP and all law enforcement right across Canada. In fact, my father was a police officer in Toronto for a number of years. He retired when I was still in high school, so that was a long time ago.

When I think of what we're trying to achieve here, and then I hear about these allegations of sexual harassment, I have to tell you it's very troubling, not only because I'm a woman, but because I also sit on this committee and know what we're trying to achieve.

I know that you've gone on record and have been quoted as taking a very tough stance on sexual harassment. I've heard those comments before, so I'm going to ask you a couple of questions regarding that.

Can you explain to the committee why you feel that allegations of harassment and misconduct by those who serve in the RCMP need to be addressed in a very strong or affirmative manner? This is a very serious set of allegations, and this committee, especially, is very concerned about the outcome of those allegations and how they are resolved.

Thank you.

[Commr Robert Paulson]

Thank you for that question as well.

I think they have to be addressed in a strong and affirmative, and I'll add, immediate manner. I think what happens in these matters of harassment—and again I'll take it outside sexual harassment to just any harassment. I can tell you that our statistics are quite interesting in terms of covering the complete span of possibilities: gender versus gender, men complaining against women, women complaining against women, women complaining against men. It's quite an interesting distribution.

What happens if it's not dealt with immediately and firmly is that people become invested in a relative position and then their whole personality and their being is invested in that complaint, and people are less inclined to want to come together and resolve it early. So being forceful, in the sense of having firm processes and policies to bring people together to resolve these things, or if required, to bring discipline to bear on the situation, is absolutely essential to minimize it and to demonstrate to others that there is, as I was talking about earlier, a fair, rule-based system of managing workplace conflict.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you.

In your previous answers or discussion with my colleague, Ms. Truppe, you had mentioned that it is a male-dominated profession. I don't think anyone here is surprised by that comment. In a male-dominated line of work, I'm wondering what efforts you are going to make to be sure that those who witness harassment are able to report it and not have any issues with their colleagues within the force itself. I'm wondering what efforts you will make to be sure that people can and will report without any type of persecution thereafter.

[Commr Robert Paulson]

Thank you.

It is a male-dominated profession historically, but less and less so. But to the point of your question, the way we ensure that is by demonstrating success in the process. I've described this problem as having two components. One is the process that responds to the complaints and manages the adjudicative process around the complaints. The other is the bottom-line conduct. Our members have to have faith in a system that will manage their complaints and bring some justice to the complaints in a formal process.

The other side of how I will address that is through this insistence on firm leadership by the people that I have in command in this organization right now, to make sure that they are responsible for the workplace and to satisfy themselves, and have their subordinates satisfy them, that this workplace is respectful.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

Previously you appeared before the Standing Committee on Public Safety, and Ms. Truppe asked this question as well, but in that answer I didn't hear you mention that centralizing the oversight of all harassment complaints will help the situation. Did you just omit that, or do you really feel that centralizing is going to improve the situation? Could you elaborate on that, please?

[Commr Robert Paulson]

Centralizing the process was part of my accountability response to it. In other words, we have 15 divisions in the RCMP, and each has a commanding officer, and legal and policy requirements. To provide consistency and demonstrate to Canadians and to this committee and others just what the scope and the nature of the problem is, we had to have that centralized.

It was centralized oversight rather than managing each individual set of facts. That's given me and my people here at headquarters the ability to reach out and address the commanding officers who, say, have stats that are out of line, or are leaving things too long. That's giving me the accountability lever.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

I have just one more quick question. I think my time is running out.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

You have 30 seconds left, Ms. James.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

I have thirty seconds. In the past, this committee has tried to encourage women to get into trades or careers that are not typically a route that a woman would take. With these allegations that are in public right now, what would you tell the young women of tomorrow? What would encourage them to make a career in the RCMP? What can you tell us today that will make a difference and change the direction of the allegations that have occurred in the past?

[Commr Robert Paulson]

I think I would say that the nature of the work is very, very powerful. I would say to young women, young men, young Canadians, that if you want a career where you can immediately see the fruit of your efforts to contribute to the Canadian way of life, then you should join the RCMP.

These complaints and this problem we have, while disconcerting, shouldn't prevent people from coming into the organization.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Mr. Paulson, unfortunately I must interrupt you, as Ms. James' time has expired. Thank you.

I would like to make a clarification concerning your motion. It would have been appropriate to table it in the beginning. This was an error on our part. It is simply that it was not a point of order, but rather a procedural matter.

Ms. Sgro, you have seven minutes.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Just to clarify, it has been tabled; I don't have to read it again.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

[Inaudible--Editor]

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

I'll read it again just to make sure, even if it is part of my seven minutes.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Okay.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

I'll read it at the end. I might have a few questions here.

Commissioner Paulson, recognizing that a lot of what happened with these charges of sexual harassment and so on were prior to your taking on the role of commissioner, I've listened very carefully to all of your positive comments about the change you are going to see happen and so on and so forth. I have to say that I think what Deputy Commissioner Callens in B.C. has done by listening to hundreds of women and taking some very immediate action is to be applauded. I'd like to see more of that.

You're saying very sincerely all of the right things, but I do worry whether any action will happen without making the proper changes to modernize the RCMP. That means that work gets done at the federal level with federal politicians by changing the regulations so that you or others have the tools to take the necessary swift action you mentioned.

How confident are you that the modernization of the RCMP and those kinds of changes to federal regulations will happen?

[Commr Robert Paulson]

I'm a bit of a novice at putting estimates on that, but I have to say that since my appointment I have had expressions of support from all quarters of government, the bureaucracy, and the central agencies.

Frankly I feel very confident that we will be able to advance in this area in the very near term, and I think you're absolutely right that it is essential.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Madam Chair, I'll read the motion again:

That, in relation to the study of the role and challenges of women employed by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the Committee schedule additional hearings and invite current and/or former female employees of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police who are prepared to share their personal stories and commentary in this regard, and that the hearings be scheduled as soon as the Committee's work plan permits.

I can say, from talking to many very committed women in the RCMP, who very much want their careers to continue but most importantly are requiring changes to be made, that my intent today—and I hope it is the intent of our committee—is to help that along by providing an opportunity for some of these individuals.

My biggest concern is the sexual harassment. I recognize the challenges that women have for advancement in a male-dominated occupation, but it's the sexual harassment that I find the most distressing. I think it's imperative that we provide an opportunity for the women, in a non-confrontational way, to come to the committee and speak about some of those issues, and that we make recommendations to assist the government in the modernization of the RCMP, which is clearly needed.

Catherine Galliford, being one of the top RCMP officers, who all of us continue to be very proud of, said in one of her comments to any woman thinking of joining the RCMP, and I quote:

Don't even think about it. No. Run like your hair is on fire. There are other police departments out there...Calgary...Edmonton...Toronto.... But do not join the RCMP.

That is such a terrible statement from someone who was clearly driven to her end in trying to deal with a variety of issues. It sends an awful statement to our young women.

We are doing a study about improving economic opportunities for girls. Deputy Commissioner Callens' daughter wants to join the RCMP, but he has indicated that unless he sees changes he would not recommend that for her.

All of these things together are very condemning. I hope that if we're able to pass this motion and have some of the women come before us on these issues, that you would look very seriously at recommendations that come out of this committee in moving this whole issue forward.

Madam Chair, is my time up? Do I still have time?

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

You will have approximately two minutes and 15 seconds left.

The motion is now before the committee. Does the committee wish to debate the motion?

This will of course not encroach on your speaking time. Two minutes and 15 seconds will be reserved for you.

Does the committee wish to adopt the motion, or debate it?

Ms. Truppe, you have the floor.