Evidence of meeting #53 for Status of Women in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cases.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Alain Gauthier  Acting Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
Jean-François Fleury  Acting Vice-President, Learning Programs, Canada School of Public Services
Felicity Mulgan  Acting Director General, Functional Communities, Authority Delegation and Orientation, Canada School of Public Service

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

Susan Truppe Conservative London North Centre, ON

Okay.

You also mentioned, I think, that the cases you assess may be new or may be carried over from a previous year. They might be reopened cases.

Could you describe what would cause your office to reopen a case? For example, do you have someone there who is determining whether you should reopen something? Does someone request something when you reopen it? How is it reopened?

8:50 a.m.

Acting Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman

Alain Gauthier

Once again, somebody would call us about an issue with harassment. The first thing we would do is inform them about the process, give them the reference that exists within either DND or the Canadian Forces, guide them through the process, explain that they have to make a harassment complaint—

8:50 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Marie-Claude Morin

I will have to interrupt you there. I am sorry, but Ms. Truppe's time is up. I am sure that you will be able to continue your comments a little later.

It is now Ms. Ashton's turn for seven minutes.

December 4th, 2012 / 8:50 a.m.

NDP

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill, MB

Thank you very much, Mr. Gauthier.

The committee has learned from your presentation that the ombudsman's office does not investigate allegations of sexual harassment. We're wondering who investigates these allegations of sexual harassment within DND. Could you be more specific in terms of the kinds of recourse that people face when they're connected with having committed sexual harassment?

8:50 a.m.

Acting Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman

Alain Gauthier

One of the first responsibilities I mentioned is to inform and educate. Once we line it up in the right direction, they have to use existing conflict resolution mechanisms, so if it's a sexual harassment complaint, they have to do a harassment complaint. They need to go through the chain of command using the process to do that.

Once the commanding officer has rendered his decision—whether it's founded or not, and what the conclusion is—if the member is not happy, he has the ability to come back to us for more questions, but then his next step is to use the grievance process specifically for the military piece. This process is fairly lengthy; it can take up to a year and a half to two years before they can have a second decision, in most cases by the Chief of the Defence Staff himself.

Then again, if they're not happy, they can come back to us. We'll look at it for the fairness piece of it and probably refer them to the Human Rights Commission, but that is about the extent. We don't do the investigation. The chain of command at the Canadian Forces does its own investigation, and they have several tools to guide them through the process.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill, MB

Okay.

As we know, many workplaces are places where people can experience harassment, and I'm wondering, in the case of the ombudsman's office in particular, if people have faced situations of harassment? What is done to address that? What effort is the ombudsman's office making to create an environment without sexual harassment?

8:55 a.m.

Acting Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman

Alain Gauthier

Are you speaking specifically within the office and how we deal with that?

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill, MB

Yes.

8:55 a.m.

Acting Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman

Alain Gauthier

That's an internal question, instead of having the watchdog function.

We do the same. We follow public service regulations. We try to create a positive workplace. We try to create a sense that people should not have any fear of bringing a complaint forward.

One of the big misconceptions is that if you have a low number of complaints, you must be doing well. Numbers by themselves mean one thing, but there's another side to it. If people feel free to complain without fear of reprisal, you may see a higher number of complaints within one organization. Such an organization, I would say, is more healthy than the one with fewer complaints.

We're not tracking numbers as such. We're tracking health in the workplace and how they create the conditions that allow people to use grievance processes if they feel they've been harassed, whether it's sexual harassment or not. That's how we work. That's also how we keep our eyes on DND and the CF.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill, MB

I appreciate that.

Our study is about the federal workplace in general. It's not only about the CF or DND, so it's important we ensure the same kind of attention is applied to all areas of the federal workplace.

How many people work in the military ombudsman's office?

8:55 a.m.

Acting Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman

Alain Gauthier

There are about 60 to 65.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill, MB

Do you have a sense of how many women are employed versus men?

8:55 a.m.

Acting Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman

Alain Gauthier

I'm not keeping track, but it's a fairly high ratio. I would say almost 40% to 50%.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill, MB

You spoke in terms of creating a culture in which sexual harassment is not tolerated, which is a very strong theme that many of our witnesses have talked about. I'm wondering specifically what the ombudsman's office does to create that kind of culture in your case, in your office.

8:55 a.m.

Acting Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman

Alain Gauthier

We have regular training for supervisors and managers, regular group meetings on a monthly basis, open-door discussions, and an annual discussion on ethics, harassment, and discrimination, so policies are very clear for all staff. That's how we go about it.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill, MB

Does your office work with other ombudsman offices in terms of sharing best practices or learning from others?

8:55 a.m.

Acting Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman

Alain Gauthier

The one we're working most closely with is the veterans' ombudsman's office. They're a much smaller office. We do have some interaction, but most of their staff is located in Charlottetown, so it's limited.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill, MB

If we could talk about projecting this question of culture to the work of DND and the Canadian Forces, does the ombudsman's office play a role in insisting on implementing best cultural practices to prevent sexual harassment in the workplace?

8:55 a.m.

Acting Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman

Alain Gauthier

I would say we have zero influence over them to tell them how to do it and how to implement the culture. What we can do is raise the issue and raise the notion that there is an issue with the cultural aspect. I think harassment is a very good example of this coming out.

It comes out in numbers. A couple of weeks ago Mr. Wenek showed a fairly positive picture of the Canadian Forces, simply based on numbers. There's more to it than that. There's the culture issue. There's the fact that from what we see and the number of complaints we receive at the office, there's a clear fear of reprisal if people move forward and make an official complaint, either on harassment or anything else.

Actually, the numbers are fairly high. Even in Mr. Wenek's numbers, he's talking about CF harassment surveys that were done in 1992 and 1997. In there he had numbers showing that the numbers were getting better and the culture is changing slightly, but they are still significantly high numbers.

One of those numbers in that survey showed there's still 14% of women who felt they were sexually harassed—14%. Let's say the population of women in the CF is 14% of the total of 70,000, so it's about 10,000 women in the Canadian Forces. Of that 10,000 women, when you look at his numbers, it's 14%, or 1,400 women, but only three or four people complained. How come it's such a huge gap? It is huge—huge.

9 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Marie-Claude Morin

Thank you.

I have to interrupt you. It is hard to believe, but seven minutes go by very quickly.

We will now hear from a member on the government side.

Ms. O'Neill Gordon, you have seven minutes.

9 a.m.

Conservative

Tilly O'Neill-Gordon Conservative Miramichi, NB

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for coming back, Mr. Gauthier. We certainly appreciate your giving us more time.

As you have said, we are hearing more and more from more and more departments that people are accepting nothing less than zero tolerance. The atmosphere and culture of the workplace is a key component. That's where we start, and that's what has to be implemented.

My colleague had started with a question, and you had to stop, so I'll give you a chance to complete the question she asked. Could you describe what would cause your office to reopen a case, who makes the request to reopen a case, and what the criteria are for reopening a case?

9 a.m.

Acting Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman

Alain Gauthier

Constituents come to us many times with a specific issue. As I said, they can come at the beginning to receive information about where to go, how the process works, and which complaint resolution mechanism to use. We guide them and refer them to what exists.

Once they have used those mechanisms, if they're not happy in the meantime, or even during the process, we're always.... We close the file, but at any given time they can contact us, and we're always going to provide help.

We guide them through a whole process that may last several years in some cases. At the end, if they're still not happy, they can come back to us. We'll reopen the file. We'll look at it, see where they're at, and try once again to guide them within that very complex conflict resolution in place within the CF.

Throughout the whole issue, from the beginning to the end, we have regular contact with them. We open and close the file. It's just terminology, because we always stay connected with them, based on their requirements.

9 a.m.

Conservative

Tilly O'Neill-Gordon Conservative Miramichi, NB

In the event of a reopened case, how do the possible outcomes differ? Do they differ from the old to the new case?

9 a.m.

Acting Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman

Alain Gauthier

It depends on the stage. I would say it's a journey. Based on where we're at on the road, the recommendation in our referral will be different in every case.

If we strongly believe the person has been treated unfairly, we will push it all the way to the Chief of the Defence Staff or the minister.

9 a.m.

Conservative

Tilly O'Neill-Gordon Conservative Miramichi, NB

They have a good chance of being heard all the way.