Status of Women Committee on Dec. 4th, 2012

[Alain Gauthier]

Yes.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Maybe that's a good survey for the committee to have. If the clerk can reference that for us, it might be helpful. Thank you very much.

[Alain Gauthier]

You're welcome.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

So it's 52%. That means all the great language we're using throughout the federal bureaucracy about making changes is somehow not getting communicated to employees. Clearly, we have more to do.

[Alain Gauthier]

Without a doubt, the fear is there. The fear is there when we receive the call. I'd say at least one-third of the people want to remain anonymous. They just want the information. They want to understand their ability to move forward, but we know that because of fear, they're not doing it.

You talk about Bill C-15. I'm not sure if there's a way to make the case that people have the right to complain without fear of reprisal. I think that would be a huge step.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Thank you.

Ms. James, go ahead.

You have five minutes.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and welcome to our witness.

In your remarks from a few meetings ago, you mentioned that the ombudsman's office acts as a direct source of information, referral, and education. When you talk about a direct source of information, what exactly are you referring to? What information are you providing?

[Alain Gauthier]

The conflict resolution processes or mechanisms within both the CF and DND are fairly complex. We inform people about them. We educate them on how the whole system works—where they need to go, where to find all those references, how to find a template for either a grievance or a harassment complaint, where to find the links to websites.

If it's more of a referral, there's the MPCC, the Military Police Complaints Commission, and we refer them to the military police. Sometimes it's a financial issue they have, so we connect them with a compensation officer. It's to guide them through that very complex process.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

I apologize if this has come up already or in the last meeting—it's been a while since you were here—but do you actually do referrals to mediators? Do you refer complainants to counselling directly? Do you offer that as well, or do you simply make the suggestion?

[Alain Gauthier]

It is a very great tool that does exist, but it is about to almost disappear. The Canadian Forces has decided, with the strategic review, to cut 50% of its alternate dispute resolution services. Where we used to have 19 officers across Canada available as experts in alternate dispute resolution, it's about to be closed, and there will be four left.

This was a great tool to help resolve conflict at the lowest level, directly between the member and the chain of command. It's about to disappear, so I think we're going to lose a lot of capacity.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

You talked about 65 cases related to harassment, with three for sexual harassment. Were any of those ever forwarded to mediation or for counselling?

[Alain Gauthier]

I would have to go into the specifics of it, but I would say yes. It's one of the basic recommendations we make.

I think you heard Commander Crewe mention that they're doing a review of conflict resolution. They have a conflict resolution working group to better package everything that exists. They're creating what they call an early notification; it's to advise the chain of command before a member makes a formal complaint, to try to understand the issue informally.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Does your office make recommendations? Would you ever recommend dismissal, removal, or some other measure on a particular issue?

[Alain Gauthier]

Yes, in some cases we recommend that the person be moved outside that work environment and transferred to either another unit or elsewhere on the base.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

That's one example. Are there any other examples you would have of recommendations? That seems...I don't want to say heavy-handed, but to remove someone and put him or her somewhere else is a pretty severe measure. If there were problems warranting removal to another area, would there not be concern that a similar situation might occur?

[Alain Gauthier]

Every situation is unique. I would say that this is one course of action that is possible. Clearly, our most recommended is an informal resolution in which there needs to be an understanding and a win-win situation at the basic level.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

When you talk about removal and moving someone into a different area, direction, or whatever, are you referring to the complainant, who you would actually pick up and move somewhere else, or are you referring to the respondent or the person who may be accused of a certain situation?

[Alain Gauthier]

Once again, it depends. Sometimes the complainant asks to go elsewhere, and that will be the solution. We talk with the commanding officer to see if this is feasible and workable. Once again, we provide only recommendations. It's a very fine line in what we're recommending in dealing with a commanding officer.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Okay.

Do I have any time whatsoever? Likely not.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

No, your time is up.

Thank you.

We will now continue with Ms. Hassainia. You have five minutes.

[Sana Hassainia, NDP, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you for appearing before us, Mr. Gauthier.

If I understood correctly, there is a huge gap between the number of people who say they have been assaulted and the number of complaints that are filed. Could you explain that gap? Is it because they are afraid to file a complaint?

Have you thought of a solution to reduce this gap by using mechanisms that work in other countries, for example?

[Alain Gauthier]

The gap is huge, but it is shrinking. I feel that the statistics presented by Mr. Wenek are accurate. If we compare today with 10 years ago, the statistics show that there has been a huge improvement. The change in culture explains the improvement, but there is still a huge gap.

I think we still need to wait a number of years and work on changing the culture within the organization. Perhaps we also need stricter regulations and consequences.

The fear of reprisal and the delay in processing the complaints are problematic. There are almost no consequences for wrongdoing and that's also a problem. People do not understand the complexity of the system and are not willing to spend two years in a conflict situation. That is another problem.

I think that a number of steps and mechanisms are needed if we want to keep going in the right direction.

[Sana Hassainia, NDP, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Thank you.

Do your courses have a section that deals with sexual harassment? If not, has the Canada School of Public Service received any suggestions to include sexual harassment in its courses?

[Alain Gauthier]

We do not have specific courses on this issue. So staff members attend courses that rely on the training provided by the Canada School of Public Service. Supervisors have a two-day course. Sexual harassment is part of the explanations and training. So there is a specific course for supervisors and another one for employees.