Evidence of meeting #7 for Status of Women in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was seniors.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Silvia Straka  Assistant Professor, As an Individual
Marie Beaulieu  Tenured Professor, As an Individual
Claudette Dumont-Smith  Executive Director, Native Women's Association of Canada
Christine Walsh  Associate Professor, As an Individual

3:55 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Niki Ashton

In the interests of time, maybe we can get things started.

On behalf of our committee, I'd like to welcome Assistant Professor Dr. Silvia Straka from the University of Manitoba, who is presenting to us as an individual, but I know her association with my home province, and also, by video conference, Dr. Marie Beaulieu,

…from Sherbrooke, Quebec. I'd like to welcome both our witnesses.

I'd also like to bring to the attention of the committee the fact that we do have 15 minutes to ask our witnesses questions after their presentations. To give a chance to all of us, given that we have to go through the subcommittee report, I'd like to give each party the option of having five minutes to question these witnesses. Otherwise, it's looking like a pretty limited situation, the way it stands right now.

Are we okay with that idea? I see some nodding heads.

Mr. Holder.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON

You mean five minutes in the same order that we normally follow?

3:55 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Niki Ashton

Yes.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON

Okay.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Niki Ashton

I'm sorry. Actually, my suggestion was Conservative, NDP, and Liberal, in the interests of equity in the 15 minutes that we have. Are we okay with that? We won't have a subcommittee report to pass every time, but this might be the chance to hear from everybody.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON

Again, Chair, I apologize. How long will these folks have to present? I don't want to take much more time on this.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Niki Ashton

We'll have 15 minutes. They'll each have 10 minutes to present to us.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON

So that gets us until a quarter past.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Niki Ashton

Yes. We'll have 15 minutes, so what I'm suggesting is five minutes each. I saw some nodding heads.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON

That gives 35 minutes to this group and one hour to the last group. Is that what your suggestion is?

3:55 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Niki Ashton

Yes.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON

Why wouldn't we equal it out?

3:55 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Niki Ashton

We could try. I don't know if the witnesses are available.

3:55 p.m.

Dr. Silvia Straka Assistant Professor, As an Individual

I have to catch a flight. I was told that it would be finished at 4:30 p.m.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Niki Ashton

Maybe with that timeline in mind, we could.... I saw some heads nodding to that idea. Are we okay with splitting it? That sounds good.

Maybe we can begin by listening first to Dr. Straka.

3:55 p.m.

Assistant Professor, As an Individual

Dr. Silvia Straka

Thank you.

Madam Chair, honourable committee members, ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much for inviting me here to talk about this important issue.

As you no doubt already know, intimate partner abuse against older women is a problem that falls between two major areas. There are two different resource networks. One we can call elder abuse; the other, domestic violence. There have been,up until very recently, two very distinct bodies of research, two bodies of knowledge, and two very different ways of conceptualizing the problem and therefore its solutions.

I came to research this issue when I was asked by an expert elder abuse intervention team, a social work team in a Quebec CLSC, to help them develop a model of intervention for intimate partner abuse. They recognized that, despite their expertise, they were really struggling with these scenarios, and that these scenarios were different in nature from other forms of elder abuse.

I interviewed 30 social workers from Quebec CLSCs working in home care, asking them to bring to me and to our research team their most difficult and complex cases and to discuss them. Then we held some focus groups.

Out of that came some interesting new things that I hadn't thought about. One is that they all brought to us cases that had extended for many decades. I realize that it can start later in life, but the cases the workers brought sometimes had gone on for as long as 60 years. They talked about intimate partner abuse over the lifetime as having a life of its own and said that it changes shape at different points in the couple's life. It can escalate, it can get more physical, it can get less physical, and it can appear to go underground for a short period of time, but it's always there.

In particular, retirement seems to be a trigger. It's a point where husbands are now in the home all the time. The workers really highlighted how now they micromanage and have ultimate control over a woman's life from the moment she wakes up till the time she goes to bed.

Another trigger that appeared to be important was health changes--changes in the health status of one member or the other or both.

The cases they brought to us were across a real spectrum, from healthier young or older women to older women who were very sick and very old. I just want to talk about a few recommendations; you'll see how that spectrum manifests a little bit.

In terms of the healthier women, let's say, for example, that it's the case of a woman in her mid- to late-sixties who is relatively healthy. She actually comes to the social worker wanting to talk about the abusive relationship and make some decisions about it. That kind of case was a minority of the cases encountered in the aging system.

But the issue there was that the social workers in the aging system need to have a better understanding of the dynamics of intimate partner abuse, because in some of the cases what we saw was that they tried, with the best of intentions, to help empower women to be more assertive and stand up to their husbands, and it backfired. If you're looking at a situation where there are dynamics of power and control, then the reaction is that men need to exert more strategies of control, which can result in escalating violence, and that creates a much higher risk scenario.

So the lack of that knowledge can at times put women at risk, and I think it's important that workers in that intervention system have that kind of knowledge.

In terms of the intimate partner abuse systems, the women's shelters, and the services around that, I think what they have lacked has been an understanding of some of the dynamics of intimate partner abuse after retirement. We don't know a lot about some of those triggers yet. We need to learn more, and the workers need to understand how it manifests in the later years of life so that they can be more helpful. They need to also understand how to adapt services to the concerns and needs of older women, which are different from those of younger women in some ways. I think the case that I described could have been well dealt with in either system, with those caveats.

The second type of scenario happens when there are more serious health concerns involved. Physical issues, mobility problems, or maybe somebody had a stroke...these types of cases tend to come into the aging network, and they come in because of the health issue. They don't come in as a relationship or abuse issue, but as a request for services.

If you have such a case come in as a request for home care services, you may end up with two clients with competing needs and intervention priorities. You might end up with an older man who needs some home care services but is abusing the older woman.

So who is your client and what is the ultimate priority? Is it to help keep the man living in the community? That may require keeping his wife with him because she's helping him with his day-to-day living. Or is it to take care of the problem of intimate partner abuse? That would prioritize the woman's needs, but it might end up with him placed in long-term care. It gets a lot more difficult when you have complex health issues entering the picture. We had some cases that were at the extreme end of complex health issues. These come in through the aging system, and it's a whole different ballpark from the first type of situation I talked about.

For example, there was the case of a woman in her late eighties, an immigrant who spoke neither English nor French. She displayed strong evidence of dementia, but had not been legally declared incompetent, and was physically ill as well. Her husband was keeping her isolated in the home. There was a nurse coming in occasionally, and a home care aide, but the husband never left them alone for a second. There were bruises and other evidence of physical abuse. He was not allowing her to have proper medical care. Because she had not been declared legally incompetent, it was extremely difficult for the health care team to adopt a more protectionist approach that would draw on the legal system. The laws vary from province to province, and they're part of the ethical and legal issues that complicate the health and the abuse issues.

It's little wonder that many of the workers we interviewed expressed great feelings of powerlessness. One of them asked how we could unravel 60 years of abuse. I felt this was something that needed to be addressed. We need to consider the structure of practice and the ways these workers are supported and equipped.

I have a couple of recommendations. They're interconnected. As social workers, we're the health care professionals who are most specifically mandated to promote the self-determination of the client, so there's a real tension here between a risk-and-protection scenario versus an empowerment scenario.

For example, in the latter case that I mentioned, it's quite clear that there's a fair bit of protection needed. But do we need to take away an older woman's voice or her right to make her own decisions?

Based on our practice with younger women, we tend to think that the only way to resolve some of these problems is for the woman to leave. That has been discussed through some reports and research, and I think we need to rethink that. I think we need to listen a lot to older women. We've heard very little from older women about how they understand this problem, about what their experiences are, and what their choices would be in these situations.

We need more conversations across resource networks. Had I remained in Quebec where the research was done, I was hoping to do a next step, which was to bring women's shelters and CLSCs into conversation with each other, and to bring policy-makers and older women into that conversation. I think we need to do that. That kind of conversation would allow us to develop research questions that will help us to form a response. I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all response for this whole gamut of situations.

It is important that this whole research and intervention agenda be driven by the voices of older women, as opposed to being driven by the voices of professionals and policy-makers.

Thank you.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Niki Ashton

Thank you, Dr. Straka.

Now we turn to Madame Beaulieu, from Sherbrooke, who is joining us on video conference.

Good afternoon, Ms. Beaulieu. Can you hear us?

4:05 p.m.

Marie Beaulieu Tenured Professor, As an Individual

Yes, I can hear you.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Niki Ashton

Excellent. We're ready for your presentation.

4:05 p.m.

Tenured Professor, As an Individual

Marie Beaulieu

With pleasure.

Madam Chair, committee members, thank you for inviting me to discuss the issue of the abuse of seniors, particularly older women.

I think you are looking at a major social issue, considering two fundamental aspects. Obviously, there is the aging population of Canada, which is very important, and the growing recognition of the abuse of seniors, which comes as a result of work that initially focused more on violence toward children and spousal abuse.

I would like to talk to you about how the abuse of older women is different from those two major areas.

I'll introduce myself very quickly, which will help you understand where I'm coming from. I'm a criminologist by training, a professor in social gerontology and social work at the Université de Sherbrooke, but for the past year, I have also been a research chair on the abuse of seniors. This research chair is funded by the Quebec government's department of the family, seniors and the status of women.

According to Gloria Gutman, president of the International Network for the Prevention of Elder Abuse—or INPEA—it's the only chair of its kind in the world. So I'm basing my comments today on 25 years of research, during which I have worked closely in the areas of practice and have very relevant experience because I have worked with the Government of Quebec as a scientific expert in developing the Governmental Action Plan to Counter Elder Abuse, the plan for 2010 to 2015.

In the next few minutes, I would like to discuss five points that I feel are fundamental for continuing your work. These are things you have already started working on, I'm sure, but I will shed new light on them.

My first point is the issue of gender. It is recognized demographically that there are more women than men because women have a longer life expectancy than men. So the fact that you would choose to focus more specifically on women is entirely justified from that perspective.

We also know that some specific forms of abuse are linked to gender. So they are going to require interventions that are also gender-specific. I'm thinking of a conference I attended just last Saturday morning when I was in Ottawa. It was for the Canadian Association on Gerontology. Someone from Mexico talked to us about the age of abused seniors. The youngest older women, so women who were between 60 and 70 years of age, were more often the victims of spousal abuse than the older women. This was explained by the fact that the spouse was still alive, whereas later on, the spouse had died.

I think it is very important to take an interest in the abuse of women, not only in the spouse or family environment, but also more generally.

I'll come to my second point—trusting relationships—in a minute. We must not lose sight that older women, like all older people, are not a homogenous group and focusing on older women means taking into account the particularities aside from chronological age, such as the person's life, socio-economic conditions and access to services.

We must also not fall into the trap of focusing only on people we feel are objectively more vulnerable, because it has been clearly shown in the study of abuse that, on one hand, there is the vulnerability of the victim—their own characteristics—and on the other, the issue of risk factors associated with the environment. The abuser is often part of that network. So it's important to take a balanced look at the vulnerability of the victim and the risk factors to realize that in some cases we may have someone who is very vulnerable but who will never be abused because that person's environment doesn't present any risk factors. Meanwhile someone who would objectively be not very vulnerable or not vulnerable at all could be abused because the environment presents risk factors.

My second point involves understanding the abuse in all its forms. Very often we use the definition of the WHO, which includes both violence and negligence in a trust-based relationship. We also say that abuse causes harm and distress to seniors. As you know, the issue of abuse is an umbrella, or global, concept that includes both spousal abuse, which ages with the couple, and family relationship issues. For example, there may be an adult child with social problems who lives with a parent. To some degree, it may be very helpful to the older mother, but it may also become very abusive at times. It is very interesting to see that the son or daughter may depend on the older mother.

So in addition to the issue of abuse at home that we are talking a lot about, we must not lose sight of the abuse of older women in seniors' residences, which is often less studied because it is harder to have access to. Older people in those residences are people who are the least independent. They are mostly older women.

My third point is at the heart of my presentation. I'm talking about the importance of measures relating to the extent of this phenomenon of abuse. Last Friday, we attended a seminar in Ottawa where we presented the results of a first national study, conducted in French and English, that measured the scope of abuse toward older people, at home and in seniors' residences. I think that Ms. Lynn McDonald had the opportunity to talk to you about it last week.

I was responsible for the francophone component. We now have a questionnaire that is ready to be administered. It is important to fully understand the situation, but we often—and I would say unfortunately—have to provide numbers to draw attention to the fact that people are being abused. The two population studies that we used to provide approximate data on the extent of this phenomenon are fairly old. The first dates from the 1980s. It shows that at least 4% of seniors living at home are abused by their family. The second, which was done as part of the General Social Survey, so by Statistics Canada, in the late 1990s, reveals that the proportion had reached 7%. So those two studies show us just the tip of the iceberg, given that only seniors able to answer the telephone could answer the questions. That means that someone who could not answer the telephone, someone who was less independent or who was near the abuser, could not answer.

If these 7% are just the tip of the iceberg, it's time we collected some new data. In the questionnaire that we proposed to Human Resources and Skills Development Canada, we clearly showed that it is important to use objective and subjective measures in the case of abuse. For example, if we ask people if they feel neglected, they might say no, but for specific questions, such as whether they have received all the help they need to take a bath or go to the bathroom, they say they haven't received that help. In other words, there is a dichotomy between what people experience and what they feel. So it's important to show the objective and subjective aspects of victimization.

My fourth point deals with the importance of the impact of abuse on the lives of seniors. An American study showed that abused individuals die at a much younger age and have more illnesses than others. It would be important to find out whether the situation is the same in Canada, so to properly measure the repercussions of this abuse.

My last point is about the role of the federal government. Canada has 13 jurisdictions: 10 provinces and three territories. What can bring us together is criminal law, but also reflection on the conditions that may be connected to financial transfers to the provinces. I think it's important that each province take into account the situation of the abuse of older women and that this results in not only political statements but also implementation, which will allow us to follow up in this area.

Thank you.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Niki Ashton

Thank you very much, Ms. Beaulieu. You had two seconds left. You really were right on.

So, thank you to the two witnesses.

We are now going to move on to the questions.

Ms. James, you have the floor.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

Thank you. I will be splitting my time with my colleague from Winnipeg South Centre.

Welcome to the two doctors who are witnesses today.

There's been a common thread in all of the discussions up until now,with all of the witnesses to date and also with the two doctors who are here. I keep hearing the words “vulnerability” and “vulnerable members”. I think that as a society one of the greatest things we can do is make sure that we protect the most vulnerable members of our society. I think one of the greatest responsibilities of any government is the safety and security of its citizens.

I just want to get acknowledgement that we agree: that as they age, elder seniors--and that doesn't necessarily mean just women, but also men--become more vulnerable, whether that means physical abilities or possibly mental capabilities as well.

I want to direct this question to Dr. Straka first. Do you believe that seniors are in that group that's deemed to be vulnerable? I have heard you mention that, so I just want to get confirmation that you agree with that statement. We've heard it in almost every committee meeting to date.

4:15 p.m.

Assistant Professor, As an Individual

Dr. Silvia Straka

Being an academic, it's hard for me to give a black and white response. I don't think seniors in and of themselves are vulnerable. My parents are 85 years old. I think they would really resent it being said that they were vulnerable.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

But in terms of an abusive action against a senior who may be 85 years old.... I'm certainly not soliciting action against me, but in an abusive situation, with something done against me versus something done against an 85-year-old woman, the severity of the injuries is going to be much greater for the 85-year-old. They're going to need to have more time to recuperate, both mentally and physically. I don't think anyone here could argue with that.

So age is definitely a factor when it comes to the terms of rehabilitation, recuperation, and getting back up on their feet. Would you agree with that statement?

4:15 p.m.

Assistant Professor, As an Individual

Dr. Silvia Straka

Not all abuse against older women is physical. I think it's a minority--