Status of Women Committee on Nov. 4th, 2014

[Wai Young, Conservative, Vancouver South, BC]

If I may, though, obviously violence and all of those other issues are very important on campus. I worked with that issue and have developed an international student safety program for universities and colleges across Canada, so that's very clear.

What I'm asking, though, is this: is helping students get a job or start their own business equally important or as important, or one of the other important things, and what does a student federation do about that? Are there job fairs, all those kinds of things that specifically help young women launch or get into the workplace?

Again, I don't want to take up too much of Mr. Barlow's time, so please if you could send us that information, that would be wonderful.

Thank you.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Macleod, AB]

Thank you.

We were talking a little bit today about getting some of the younger girls involved. I have two daughters, one in university, one in high school, so I definitely appreciate this discussion today.

Ms. Archer, we talked briefly about getting women involved in the trades at an earlier age. We have a large comprehensive high school in my riding, which is going through a $25-million renovation right now to improve the carpentry and welding shops. It's great to have these programs for leadership, but what specifically can we do to raise awareness at that high school level? The trend is definitely changing, where we're trying to get more people involved in the trades. That's where the job market is in Alberta. What do we do, or what programs can we look at to raise that awareness at that high school level to get young girls involved?

[JudyLynn Archer]

I first think it needs to start happening in the grade 4 level. High school is a little late, so start a lot earlier and engage with these young girls to really help them gain the confidence that they will need in order to take part in shop class. Even if we have the shops, girls aren't particularly encouraged. We need to get the parents involved, the girls involved, starting at about age 10.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Macleod, AB]

Is that something, Ms. Archer, that would be a partnership between business and government, or is that something we have to get guidance counsellors involved with? Where do we start on something like that?

[JudyLynn Archer]

I think the key informants here are definitely industry, parents, organizations where youth are their mandate, and the kids themselves, yes.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Macleod, AB]

Ms. Roy, I appreciate what you've gone through, and the courage you're showing today to be here.

You mentioned earlier in your presentation that tuition was an issue, and that it was more difficult for women to get tuition. Was that through student loans? I wonder if you could expand on that a little bit. I would find that disconcerting if getting tuition for post-secondary education was easier for men than women. Perhaps you could expand on that a little bit.

[Anne-Marie Roy]

The tuition fees are the same for both men and women, but because women are facing different economic barriers, the point I was trying to make is, because the cost of post-secondary education is so expensive, many women, and male students as well, are forced to take on loans and then accumulate a very large student debt. Paying back that student debt is where we see an issue with equity. Men are able to pay back their student loans much more quickly and therefore are not forced to pay interest over a longer period of time because when they join the workforce they're making higher wages than women. That's the point I was trying to make.

Yes, it is 60% of borrowers from the Canada student loans program who are women.

[The Chair, NDP, Hélène LeBlanc]

Thank you, Mr. Barlow.

Ms. Freeland, you have seven minutes.

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. McDonald, one of the things that has come out very strikingly in your testimony is that it's not a pipeline problem when it comes to women on boards and in senior corporate management. That's not a truth universally acknowledged, so it's great to hear you say that.

There are women who are not being appointed to those positions of power. Is there an opportunity for the government to use its leverage as a major client and procurer to help break through this?

[Janice McDonald]

Again, thank you.

Anything we do to shine a light on the problem will enable change to happen at a quicker pace, I think, and saying which measures matter. If we look for those outcomes and make a concerted effort to say we want to see those numbers change and rise and improve, I think there is an opportunity there. Again, for me, it's comply and explain. I think we want people to understand why change is not happening. Why do you not have more women on your boards? Are you taking the steps that you could to ensure different outcomes?

Again, if women aren't even on the list or in the pool, they can't be selected. We hear a lot of times from recruiters who will say, “Well, I wasn't required to”, or in nomination committees, “Well, I couldn't find any great women.” Then the women aren't on the list, so then they aren't selected, and the problem continues.

If women are on the list, then they have a chance to be considered, and we have a chance to make change.

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Can having women on the list be part of the comply or explain regime that you'd be in favour of?

[Janice McDonald]

Any time we can agitate for that would be very helpful if organizations saw that as an important thing to do. Why would you not want women on your boards? The business case is made; diversity is important, and you want to reflect your consumers certainly around the corporate board. To me it makes good sense.

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

You've thought about this a lot. Do you have a figure in mind that you think should be the comply or explain threshold, a percentage of women on boards that we should be aiming for?

[Janice McDonald]

I'd really like to make it a figure that is not a figure of discussion anymore. I would like the right people to get the job, which means we're not talking about that as a gender issue anymore. We have qualified candidates. The right people are on the job and that's men and women.

It makes good sense. It makes good business sense. We're beyond talking about whether or not it needs to happen. It must happen and businesses that do it show stronger outcomes. That business case has been made. It really is in their favour.

Change is hard and it's slow, but I'm an eternal optimist. I believe we will get there, but I also think that we have to agitate to get there.

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Ms. Archer, I'm particularly grateful that you got up so early in the morning in Edmonton to be with us.

We heard from Ms. McDonald about the importance of entrepreneurship and the difficulty that women have getting access to capital. In the trades that you're helping women break into, something that can be very powerful for women is to go from being a skilled tradeswoman employee to running her own small business and maybe large business. Do you see women in the trades making that transition and what are the barriers if they're encountering any?

[JudyLynn Archer]

Access to capital is a constant. Whether you're wanting to come into programs like ours, for example, we're not a post-secondary, so there are no student loans to come into our programs which means women need alternative sources of capital funding to come into these programs. There's no funding from government. They have to get a loan from the bank to come into our program or pay for it themselves.

Four years later after coming into our program, they're now a journeyperson. A large percentage of our graduates start their own businesses. Access to capital is a killer for women across the board. I'd have to agree with that.

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

What are the particular hurdles? Is it what we're hearing from Ms. McDonald, that it's just harder for women, that they're just not taken as seriously?

[JudyLynn Archer]

Yes, unfortunately.

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

What can we do about it?

[JudyLynn Archer]

I don't know. When we figure it out, let me know.

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

We've been talking with Ms. McDonald about some kind of comply or explain. Financial services are highly regulated. In exchange for regulation, it's very legitimate for governments to require some real openness about what they're doing.

Would you be in favour of some kind of need to stipulate specifically how many loans are being given to women entrepreneurs?

[JudyLynn Archer]

I'd have to think on it.

[The Chair, NDP, Hélène LeBlanc]

Ms. Roy, Ms. McDonald, and Ms. Archer, I would like to thank you for your very interesting testimony and for your enriching answers. You have made a great contribution to our study.

I would also like to thank all the members of the committee. We will see each other at the same time on Thursday, November 6.

The meeting is adjourned.