Evidence of meeting #111 for Status of Women in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was candidates.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

William McBeath  As an Individual
Brenda O'Neill  Associate Professor, Department of Political Science, University of Calgary, As an Individual
Bob Bratina  Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, Lib.
K. Kellie Leitch  Simcoe—Grey, CPC
Sonia Sidhu  Brampton South, Lib.
Madeleine Redfern  Mayor, City of Iqaluit
Arezoo Najibzadeh  Executive Director, Young Women's Leadership Network
Daniela Chivu  As an Individual

3:55 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

3:55 p.m.

As an Individual

William McBeath

I would say that there are a lot of things that we can all do, but it's about being mindful and asking, “Is this sending a message?” Are you holding an event a place that women would want to go or is it in a place that has been traditionally a place where men meet? If they're walking into their first riding association, have we done the work of trying to elect a diverse group of people to that board of the riding association? Or is a woman going to walk in, see 30 men sitting around the table, and then say she's running for office? What kind of reception might that get?

Ultimately, it's about dispelling the idea that some personal characteristic defines whether or not you should run for a political party. I think there's that belief—certainly, I would say on half of the movement I represent, the Conservative side—that we're not looking for certain people. That's completely false. If you believe what we believe, if you're passionate about it, we want you to run for office. I think those are the messages that really have to be reinforced, not just by women but by everybody involved in the political process.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

That's excellent. Thank you very much.

We're now turning it over to Sheri Benson for seven minutes.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Sheri Benson NDP Saskatoon West, SK

Thank you to both of our witnesses today.

Professor O'Neill, you can see the uncomfortableness when we start to talk about quotas. People have a hard time discussing it and getting into it a little more, and I think we can all relate to what some of that uncomfortableness is. I did appreciate your flipping it and asking why we don't look at the ceiling on men's overrepresentation. I do think that helps us move a little off that, where we're feeling comfortable that it is focused on that.

Your comment was that if we don't do something drastic, it'll be a long time.... Maybe you can expand on that a little more. Why would it change by not.... We've heard around the table here that there is a critical mass that needs to be in a parliament or a legislative body for women to feel and see that as a place that is for them as well. I thought you might want to share a bit more around quotas and why they're important or could make a difference, sooner rather than later.

4 p.m.

Prof. Brenda O'Neill

One of them is definitely that if you impose a quota, without question it sends an important message as to the importance of gender equity and makes it clear that the government is committed to this particular issue.

I would also say quotas don't have to last forever. They could be short-lived depending on how effective they become and how quickly they become effective.

I would get to another element of your question, which was why it has taken so long. I would argue one of the reasons why it has taken so long is that the responsibility for improving it has fallen on a very small number of parties that are committed to gender equity but at many levels of government tend not to be the strongest parties, and so tend not to get elected, and so that is one of the consequences of it.

I think it's also the case that we've relied for the most part on those individuals who have structural and situational barriers to their actually getting to the position of election. We're relying on women to do it as opposed to the demanders of nominees. We're relying on the supply, which is the women and the very ones who have those barriers in place. We're waiting for them to somehow magically come forward when we know it's not a level playing field for women and men in politics. This is the problem.

When you have riding presidents saying we have one woman who's the leader of the party and we don't really need any others, this isn't true. This is an issue, and I think adopting a quota, while it is strong and might be easier to implement than some other things like changing our electoral system, which we know is not going to happen—we've tried a number of times—could potentially have a great impact in sending that message, but also in helping all parties see that this is an important thing to be doing.

Although I respect your point, I don't think we should be foisting that responsibility on third parties. I think political parties have the responsibility to ensure women are elected, to ensure a good diversity of individuals are elected. I think it's parties that can, as we've seen in the past. When they desire it, they can get it done, so I think it's parties that should have this responsibility. But, again, I don't think it needs to be punitive. I think it can be a financial incentive that's put in place to help parties.

I know Sarah Childs and Rosie Campbell gave you the example in the U.K., and I think that's an important one to look to. It does have some possibilities here, but it has to be a Canadian quota, something that works here. We don't have to call it a quota. The Abella report called it employment equity, didn't want to call it affirmative action. So give it a different name, but make it clear that it's a priority.

4 p.m.

NDP

Sheri Benson NDP Saskatoon West, SK

Professor O'Neill, my next question is to ask you to offer your comments about where we might put the quota. In the system of trying to get women into politics, where is the biggest lever, and where is the place people might feel most comfortable including a quota? I know there are all different kinds of systems around where quotas fit in and where they are placed within the system. I know this committee has talked about looking at the nomination and the candidate, so you're getting away from “you win because you're a woman” kind of thing. I would be interested.

4 p.m.

Prof. Brenda O'Neill

If we looked at gender equity in nominations, say, my worry would be that you might get women put onto the slate without really any recognition. I think where it needs to be is in the number of candidates who are actually put forward and running in the election. Because it's a kind of winner-take-all system, it seems to me that's where that really needs to be in place in order for it to have some kind of impact, and a real impact.

The real impact here is not just having women run, because we know there are sacrificial lambs already. The real impact is getting women to win. I think that's really where you need to see it, because what you want to see is diversity in the House of Commons, not necessarily diversity in the nomination slate. That would be my argument.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Sheri Benson NDP Saskatoon West, SK

Thank you.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

We're going to move over to Bob Bratina, for seven minutes, please.

4:05 p.m.

Bob Bratina Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, Lib.

Thanks for being here.

I ran in four elections and won them all. In three of them my wife, a retired school teacher, was the campaign organizer. Most of my political success came as a result of the hard work of retired school teachers.

After the first term in municipal office as a councillor, I didn't like it. It was an old boys' club, it was not pleasant and I begged my wife to run for my position. She absolutely refused. It's interesting to me because I've asked her and all of her close friends to run—mostly retired teachers, principals, and inner city teachers and principals who had difficult roles to play in the community and were all very successful. They had absolutely no interest in getting into politics.

I don't think it had anything to do with self-confidence or questioning if they really belong. They just didn't seem to want to. Have you noticed that among women you have spoken to in this regard?

4:05 p.m.

Prof. Brenda O'Neill

To me, that's a function of the lower level of political interest among women. We know there's a gap in political interest. Men tend to be more interested in politics than women are. If you're not even interested in politics, you're less likely to want to see yourself run.

I also know that Dr. Sylvia Bashevkin talked to you about the difficulties of running in politics as a woman just in terms of safety and security, particularly with the Internet. We know this is an issue at the moment. I think the degree to which you'd want to put yourself forward and risk having that be something that you need to address is an issue for a number of women.

But if we're talking about even in the past.... I talked about gender role stereotyping. Politics is still a man's world. It takes a particular type of woman, I think, to want to enter that world.

When you get a certain number of women around the table, I think it makes a difference. Once we get a certain number of women elected into the House of Commons, or at any level, I think the nature of politics will change. What will also change is the stereotyping of politics as a man's place. I think that will change, but I think it will only change once we have bold action where we get a significant number of women into politics. I think it will change when we have 60% of women sitting in the House of Commons.

4:05 p.m.

Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, Lib.

Bob Bratina

How much of your observation would be based on the decorum the public sees in terms of the way politicians behave?

4:05 p.m.

Prof. Brenda O'Neill

There's no question that politicians are not the most respected of individuals at the moment. I don't think I'm telling you anything you don't know. I have great respect for politicians, but even in my own family, in my extended family, when we sit around and talk about politicians, that is not something we have....

Again, it's about why you want to enter that arena if you think these individuals are in it for themselves and don't work very hard—all the things that we know not to be true and yet people believe. The only way to change that stereotype is to think about it and to think about what we can do to help it be better in the future.

4:05 p.m.

Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, Lib.

Bob Bratina

To both of you, do you feel the media has a role to play or is affecting the discussion at all?

4:05 p.m.

Prof. Brenda O'Neill

On a gender basis or just generally about politicians?

4:05 p.m.

Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, Lib.

Bob Bratina

On this notion of women in politics.

4:05 p.m.

Prof. Brenda O'Neill

Absolutely. You just have to read the work of Dr. Linda Trimble. She just wrote a fascinating book called Ms. Prime Minister. In it she looks at different women and how the media have treated those different prime ministers who are women.

So yes, absolutely.

4:05 p.m.

As an Individual

William McBeath

I think you're absolutely right. I cannot recall the last time a news article mentioned what a male politician was wearing or how their hair had changed.

4:05 p.m.

Prof. Brenda O'Neill

Or said “male” Prime Minister.

4:05 p.m.

As an Individual

William McBeath

That's true. You're absolutely right.

I think the other thing, too, is that for a lot of people who don't follow politics closely, the entire process from “I think I might want to be an elected official” to becoming one is opaque. You just don't know it. You don't know that you have to get nominated at a riding association where there's a vote. You have to sell memberships. You don't know how to get a list. All of these technical things I think are very off-putting to people who don't love politics and breathe it every day.

To make that process better, again, one of the things I think a PAC can do is try to explain it to someone right off the bat. This is what running for office is like. This is how a nomination works. This is how you get lawn signs made. This is how you make phone calls. These are all things that we may take for granted when normal people have absolutely no idea how these things come about.

To me, that's another benefit that I think would help: shed some light on how this works.

4:10 p.m.

Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, Lib.

Bob Bratina

Perhaps I could ask about the diverse community. The face of Canada seems to be changing somewhat. Is there any reflection in terms of newcomers or the families of recent immigrants showing more interest in politics? I have to say that in my own world, there seems to be a large group of interested people from the diverse community wanting to get involved. As to whether that means a female from that group will step forward—my time will come soon enough—which I'd like to see, is there any data on or reflection of that aspect of this?

4:10 p.m.

Prof. Brenda O'Neill

I haven't looked at that in a while, but what I have looked at in the past is that normally first-generation immigrants tend to be overwhelmed with just getting engaged in setting themselves up. Very often it's the second and future generations that are much more involved in politics and much more engaged.

4:10 p.m.

Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, Lib.

Bob Bratina

Right.

Those are my questions. Thank you very much.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

We'll now switch to our second round.

We'll begin with Kellie Leitch for five minutes.

4:10 p.m.

K. Kellie Leitch Simcoe—Grey, CPC

Thank you to both of you for coming today.

Both of you mentioned how leadership plays a very essential role in making sure we progress on diversity. I completely agree with you. It encourages women to either step forward or to step out and not participate. What do you think those characteristics are of a leader or a party that would encourage women to step forward, and of the ones who, quite frankly, would have her decide that this is not the game she wants to be participating in?

Perhaps you could be succinct, because I have two more questions.