Status of Women Committee on April 4th, 2019

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Exactly. What I'm saying is that when people retire, 63% of those get CPP only.

[Katherine Scott]

That's right. Absolutely. And very many fewer have access, as I mentioned, to private employment pensions and the like. Some have no assets and support at all included in that.

I mean, that number has changed. A lot of that, as I said, reflects the increased engagement of women in the labour force. As you pointed out, that's been a trend. Women's labour force participation has been very high in Canada for many long years now. Women, of course, have different work histories. Absent that employment, they are incredibly impoverished and must rely on either the province or the family. They're extraordinarily vulnerable.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you very much.

For the last round, Emmanuella, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

First of all, thank you to all of you for being here with us to discuss this really important issue today. I am the one who moved to do this study in this committee. So many of the seniors in my riding of Saint-Laurent and my community are excellent at getting the message across and letting me know that there are still huge gaps and that we haven't filled their needs yet.

Obviously I think that our government is doing quite a bit to try to help meet some of those needs. When we look at the costs that seniors have, it's obviously the cost of living, the cost of rent or of taxes for their homes, buying food, the cost of medication.

We're trying to tackle it from an angle of pharmacare so that eventually they don't have that cost of medication, and the national housing strategy, which will take care of a lot of the housing costs for many seniors.

If there were something more that could be done, what would be your priority? What would you say is the next thing that we haven't done yet that absolutely needs to be done?

[Katherine Scott]

You have pinpointed a very important facet that would strengthen the economic security of seniors: housing. I applaud the government on the national housing strategy and the investments and the monies that are available in terms of the expansion of units. I understand that the co-housing fund, for instance, would be 6,000 units a year. However, that's going to fall woefully short of what's needed.

Most seniors, of course, do not live in subsidized housing, and even those who do still have high expenses. Many more seniors are basically hanging on to their homes. I was struck by the extraordinary number of seniors who are living independently in all communities across the country who are relatively isolated, without access or support.

I think additional investment to build more units will be incredibly important, including supportive housing units that provide the professional support needed for people dealing with dementia and the like. I think the housing benefit, which again we're still waiting for, will be very important for seniors, a large chunk of whom rent—certainly in centres like Montreal—and are facing, as I pointed out, very high core housing needs.

Additional investments in housing would make a real difference for seniors.

[Margaret Gillis]

I can't say all of them, right? I have to actually come up with one. You've put me on the spot.

I think that trying to decrease the wage gap is a really important piece for women, because so many of the other determinants of health, and access to other things, fall out of that. I'm kind of stealing Katherine's line.

There are also a number of other really key things that can be done in the health care system. I think homelessness is important and there are things that can be done right away on that, and poverty, the health care system, and, of course, rights, because I'm a rights supporter.

[Dr. Kiran Rabheru]

I'll add that the single biggest loss in a person's life is their health. Next to that, it's their spouse and their house. Those are the three biggest losses. The wild card is your health. As soon as that joker is played, it's game over; it could happen to any one of us today as we're going home.

I think we really need to provide early upstream care to keep people well. For those who are well, it's keeping people well. Also, we know the risk factors. We know the red flags that are going to get people into trouble. The red flags are cognitive frailty, social frailty, mental health. We can identify those people early and provide supports for them in their own home, where they want to live.

We're not talking about expensive interventions. These are very basic, low-key interventions. It's also keeping them out of the hospital. As soon as they go into a hospital bed or a long-term care home, your costs are through the roof. Those are the two things that take up the most money.

If we want to save money and provide good care, we need to do those things.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you for your insights.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much to the panel, to Katherine Scott, Margaret Gillis, and Kiran Rabheru. This has been an excellent panel.

We are going to suspend for two minutes and call up our second panel.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you very much.

For our second hour, I am pleased to welcome, as individuals, Lynn Lecnik, who is from Winnipeg, Manitoba—you will find her on our screen today—Mary Moody and Lana Schriver.

We're going to begin with Lynn.

Lynn, you have the floor for seven minutes.

[Lynn Lecnik, As an Individual]

Great.

I understand that, being a senior, I have been invited to voice my experience as a homemaker. I was in a fortunate group. My husband was in a position where he could earn enough income that I was free to take care of the home full time.

As a high school student, I appreciated that I also was free to pursue a career. I actually spent four years in university and one year at a technical college. I received my diploma in nursing.

Soon afterward, I met my husband. When we established our home, he left the choice entirely up to me whether I would work outside the home.

I knew myself well enough to realize that I could not handle both a career and taking care of the home well. As much as I liked the idea of working as a nurse, my first choice was to maintain a family home. At that time, my husband was working as an insurance sales manager and used home entertaining a fair amount to build up relationships. I was free then to help in this valuable PR work.

I have found this to be a wonderful way to live. My husband was free to concentrate on providing for the family, knowing I had the home front covered. If a child was sick, no problem; I was home. While we lived in the city, the children could come home for a hot lunch. Almost always in the evening, the family could sit down together for a home-cooked meal. Our children did have some extracurricular activities, but not lots, so the schedule was seldom hectic.

And yes, being a homemaker let me be free to volunteer. In the city, it was limited. We loved our home and neighbours in the city, but both Josip and myself had been raised in rural settings, so when my husband was semi-retired, we made the move to an 80-acre country property. Here we raised our younger children on this practical hobby farm. Here we became much more involved in volunteering. Josip volunteered in the Lions Clubs organization, which automatically meant I was assisting in their fundraisers and entertaining. I chose to volunteer in the seniors home, providing activities, since I was very familiar with their ways. My parents had run a nursing home when I was growing up and we lived among them. When the children were in elementary school, I could be a parent helper, which the children loved. In high school, I was on the parent advisory council, which was more beneficial to me as I was able to be aware what was happening inside those walls. Now, in our small country church, our volunteering increased there, and Sundays could be a day of rest since I would be home to do the needed work during the week.

The sad reality, which most everyone sees, is that volunteer clubs are folding for lack of volunteers.

Gardening is our love. Our garden is huge, 150 feet by 50 feet. It gives us healthy organic vegetables year-long. There is no way I could have done that if I were working. It takes half the summer, and more, just to take care of it and all the produce.

Yes, my CPP is embarrassingly low. It comes just from my bit of employment before marriage and the help I gave my husband when he ran his personal insurance agency.

We have built up some healthy RSP accounts for me as well as a bit in tax-free accounts to support me, as needed, in the future. If my husband dies before me, my income will greatly diminish, but as my husband says to our children, he will leave them a mother who can come and visit but does not have to stay.

We are very grateful for income splitting. This allows us to save some, using the tax-free savings. We are ready then for the heavy expenses, which invariably come, and hopefully to put away a bit for my future.

My mom is 104. I think I might have a long future.

We never raise children without making mistakes, but it is so satisfying to have been able to provide them a home with a parent who could always be there for them without outside work pressures. My friend's son and daughter-in-law are making huge financial sacrifices to be able to be involved in their children's lives on a daily basis. His gross income is healthy. Taxes and program supports seem to be based on that gross income, yet they are struggling to live on the net income.

I don't need a job outside the home to participate in the economic, social and democratic life of Canada. We raise children to be leaders, to be good stewards of their finances and of the world they live in, to be active members of the society they live in and to know how they can make an impact on the law and government in Canada. The way we raise our children is a full participation in the economic, social and democratic life of Canada. As I said, I was very fortunate to be a relatively stress-free wife and mother.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you very much, Ms. Lecnik.

I'm now going to pass the floor to Mary Moody for seven minutes.

[Mary Moody, As an Individual]

Thank you for inviting me.

My name is Mary Moody. I took time out from the workforce to raise my family. The object of my story is to set forth the reasons I feel it's important to give encouragement and/or incentive to women who wish to take time out to make families their priority.

I graduated from the Vancouver General Hospital as a registered nurse in 1963. I practised in the case room and the delivery room, and on the gynecology ward. My co-workers were excellent, and I enjoyed working with the patients.

I married my husband while he was an intern, and he was in the navy at that time. Following his internship, we were posted to Comox on Vancouver Island. My intention was to start back to work in the hospital there—but then, we had four children under the age of three. To be very honest, we were complete failures at birth control. I realized then that it would become difficult to go back to work for some time, and thus I became a stay-at-home mom, with endless loads of laundry to do. My dream of going back to a career faded into the background.

My husband's tour of duty ended and we moved to Richmond so that my mother could help me with the children. It was always our desire to live and work in a rural setting, and so we moved to Pemberton. We commuted between Richmond and Pemberton for one year to see if it would be a viable option, driving up the highway with four small children, a dog, and a cat—a rather exciting journey with three car-sick boys and one car-sick cat. My parents were horrified we were taking their grandchildren to the wild west—and, indeed, we were.

The children were too small for me to go back to work. Being at home, I could become involved in the community. I lobbied for the first kindergarten in the area, meeting opposition from a council member who felt it was just a glorified babysitting service—I think you can all gather what sex this person was. Pemberton was a farming community. The children were separated by long distances, and thus did not have an opportunity to socialize and interact with each other. The town had a liquor store, but we did not have a kindergarten. I wrote to a Vancouver newspaper, stating my opinion, and eventually the government saw fit to provide a kindergarten.

I helped out at school functions, billeting children in our home who had come to play sports or join the school band, and involving myself in bake sales, sports days, etc. There was a need in our small community for extracurricular activities to bring children together.

I was a Brown Owl for some years. I took my Brownies on camping trips, hiking trips, and I initiated several programs for the Brownies to earn badges.

I became involved in the pony club. This entailed a lot of organization, with lessons and fun days with races, ribbons, trophies and a concession stand. Most of the village would turn out for these days and join in the fun—and it was a lot of fun.

Eventually I went back to work part time in my husband's office. Besides doing bookkeeping, I was able to use some of my nursing skills—immunizations, prenatal care, blood pressure checking, allergy injections, and so forth. We had a high incidence of diabetes in our area, and so our office ran educational clinics. I would bake samples of good foods to use and advise them on how to cook healthy meals for diabetics.

We left Pemberton, as my husband became ill and subsequently took a nine-to-five job in Nelson. I wanted to work in the local hospital, but the only option available to me was to work the night shift. That was not for me; I'm not a night shift person. I decided it was time to change to a new career. I took and passed my real estate exams in Nelson.

We then moved to Kamloops. I arrived in Kamloops with my shiny new real estate licence and started working immediately. I had absolutely no knowledge of the layout of Kamloops. Initially I studied maps of Kamloops to find where the house I was showing was and where the nearest schools, community centres and churches were. I was then asked by a friend to go up to Sun Peaks Resort and market the projects up there. I loved this job. It meant I could ski quite a bit.

We were aging, and eventually we felt that we should move closer to our family. We ended up back where we started, on Vancouver Island.

Looking back as a senior, I'm sorry that I did not have a longer work experience as a nurse in a hospital setting, as I enjoyed that aspect of my career. There was no opportunity to collect a work pension or a larger CPP. Socially it was a difficult time being out of the workforce, as I really had very little connection with the outside world, particularly when my children were very small.

I worried that I could not carry on an intelligent conversation when my husband came home from work and found it difficult to speak on interesting subjects to others adults. When we entertained, I felt a sense of not being in the loop, so to speak. We had no access to television or newspapers for many years, so I felt quite cut off from the world.

More women today are entering the workforce for many reasons. Perhaps it's time for those who wish to stay home to have some encouragement and incentive. It is known that the formative years of a child are ages one to four. There are benefits provided, but not for this length of time. We are not all cut from the same cloth and as women, we will continue to question our choices. We need to feel that we're doing something worthwhile and if it is staying home with our family and contributing to our community, then we should feel good about this.

I chose to stay home with my children and family. Initially, it was not a choice. I watched them grow up to become the individuals that they are today. We grew our own food and the children had to help with chores. I believe this helped to impart a sense of responsibility and an awareness of the world around them, making good foundations for them to live by. On reflection, it was the best choice for me.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you very much.

We're going to move on to our final speaker. Lana Schriver, you have the floor for seven minutes.

[Lana Schriver, As an Individual]

Thank you for inviting me.

I was an early bloomer. I became a mom, graduated from high school and married the love of my life before I turned 18. Not a lot of my female peers furthered their education at college or university in the early seventies, so I didn't feel abnormal becoming a stay-at-home mom. Little did I realize that 40 years later my contributions to family and community would not even remotely compare monetarily to that of my husband or workplace moms.

My husband was established in a good job and could provide us with a modest new home and all the basic necessities of life. Living near supportive family in a friendly community, we needed only one vehicle.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Lana, I hate to interrupt you, but I do need to speak to the committee for about 10 seconds.

I just got an email that there will be a vote. The vote will be taking place at 10:33. I am looking for consent that we continue to hear testimony for 20 minutes as this will provide full consent.

Please go ahead, Lana. Thank you.

[Lana Schriver]

By the time we had welcomed three little ones into our lives, we knew we needed more space to accommodate our growing family, so we purchased a larger home. Our lives were full and busy. My husband was youth pastor at our local church; we both taught Sunday school and our kids has lots of friends. By the time our fourth child was born, 14 years separated the oldest and youngest. We now had a newborn, an elementary school student, one in junior high and one in high school. Life was busier still and more expensive.

We were still a one-income family, but I was free to volunteer regularly. I collected funds door to door for various registered charities. I had opportunity to serve on various home-school committees like SPAC and PSSC. Staying at home allowed me to be a part of all those firsts with our children: first tooth, first step, bumps and bruises, chicken pox, mumps, birthday parties, sleepovers, first dates, heartaches, picnics, sleep-in mornings and vacations. We attended youth conventions and summer camps with our kids, going along as volunteers and supervisors. We won our first Walt Disney World vacation using cents-off coupons at our local pharmacy, and then we funded our second trip with cash that I had earned while babysitting for my husband's co-worker.

Finances were tight sometimes, but we were blessed with contentment. A growing family and their growing expectations were expensive, but our needs were met, and often our wants as well. We grew our own garden, freezing, canning, pickling and jamming the produce. I sewed some of our clothing. We reduced, reused and recycled even before the slogan became popular. Breastfeeding and using cloth diapers provided us significant savings. My husband's optional workplace benefits were an added blessing. On our one income we financed driver's ed, first cars, orthodontic braces, ski equipment, lift tickets and even some brand name clothing for the kids as well. Our teenagers earned their own spending money, but they did not appreciate my little black book, where I kept an account of monies borrowed, etc.

What a bonus it was when our RRSP deductions were available to be a benefit on those dreaded income tax returns. We purchased payroll savings bonds to help us with unexpected expenses and those needed purchases at Christmastime. At 40 I became a stay-at-home grandmother, babysitting eventually two precious granddaughters. Because of financial circumstances, their moms could not be home with them full-time and could not afford day care.

When our youngest son was in grade 12, I began doing paid casual work at our local schools in the cafeteria and library. In 2006, I was asked to work with a child with special needs. At that time I realized how much I didn't know, so in 2007 I enrolled in an ABA—that's applied behaviour analysis—course at the college of extended learning. Post-secondary education was a prerequisite to entering the course. I had none, but since I had good references from the schools where I had volunteered, that requirement was waived. At 54 years old, I entered a university lecture theatre for the first time with fellow students younger than my children. Perseverance paid off and at age 55 I walked on stage to receive my certificate. At age 59 I was finally awarded a permanent educational assistant position. I had said earlier that I was an early bloomer. I guess I'm a late one too.

As I near retirement, I am considering a job-sharing opportunity. My leaving this position, though, leaves my husband and me with the added financial burden of covering our own medical health insurance costs, no small amount. Because of my late entry into the paying workforce, I have not had time to prepare adequately for retirement in terms of CPP or independent workplace retirement plans. Had my husband not wisely prepared for his retirement, we would be in a difficult position financially as I contemplate leaving the workforce and forgoing my income. Yes, he has his OAS, his CPP and his RRIFs, but where does that leave my contributed portion? I have an OAS, but with my combined allowance of 30 years child-rearing and the CPP I've paid since entering the workforce, I receive less CPP than our medical coverage will be.

I have great respect for those resourceful moms who are able to successfully wear both hats, but is there not something that our leaders today could do to allow kids to be at home with moms who are considered valuable contributors to the well-being of this wonderful land we call Canada? Who better to nourish and nurture our nation's children than those mothers who gave birth to them? Our granddaughter has now decided to leave the workforce to be with her little ones, working a small business from home. I wish her every success and trust that by the time she reaches my age and retirement, there will be benefits in place for stay-at-home moms.

My husband and I have now reversed our roles. I work five days a week and he keeps the house looking good. He's the one to volunteer, making frequent visits to the hospitals and the homes of shut-ins. He assists the pastor at our church. He does administrative work there and holds weekly outreach services. He performs weddings, funerals, baptisms and baby dedications, often for those who have no other church affiliation. He hosts fundraisers for local charities and benefits for those undergoing various medical procedures.

He is a busy community worker, but if my observations are correct, it appears that in our golden years his pension will contain substantially more gold than mine.

Thank you for listening to my story.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you very much.

Lynn, Mary and Lana, I know that all of us won't be able to go home and call our moms tonight, but thank you, because the first call tonight will be to my mom to say how much I appreciate her. You women have been wonderful.

We're going to start off with our seven-minute round.

We'll be starting with you, Terry.

[Terry Duguid, Liberal, Winnipeg South, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to be sharing my time with Ms. Romanado, who is the parliamentary secretary to our Minister of Seniors.

You took the words right out of my mouth, Madam Chair. I was thinking about my mother the whole time.

Thank you for those very thoughtful and inspiring presentations. My mother is the mother of five boys, four by the time she was 23, five by the time she was 26, so our household was just a giant food fight.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Terry Duguid, Liberal, Winnipeg South, MB]

I have two daughters, one who is pursuing a career and has just launched her career, and the other who is a stay-at-home mom. The beautiful thing about this country is that we have choice.

My question is for Lynn. I'd ask for a brief answer, Lynn, but if you had two minutes in an elevator with our seniors minister and you had to think of one priority that would assist senior women in our country.... We've heard some very stark testimony about the lack of pension support and about the fact that two out of three dementia cases are women. We've heard some very stark statistics today. If you could recommend one thing to our seniors minister, what would you recommend?

[Lynn Lecnik]

I'm kind of blank on that one. I was trying to figure it out myself. What can the government provide for people who are essentially not working? Probably the best thing is just to give more tax breaks for the young people who are trying and struggling, so that they would have enough money.

Right now, the government programs seem to be based on favouring the working mothers. The benefits are not for the ones who are staying at home. As I was mentioning with regard to a friend, the benefits are based on gross income, so they miss all the extra benefits. That little bit would help. I'm sorry that I couldn't be more knowledgeable in that area.

[Terry Duguid, Liberal, Winnipeg South, MB]

Thank you.

I will share time with my colleague.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Thank you so much for your testimony. I have to say: what fantastic women! My mom was a stay-at-home mom as well. I am the middle child of three. I have two brothers: one younger, one older. I had the great pleasure of having my mom at home too, taking care of the home. When she retired at 65, she did not have CPP or sufficient RRQ—I'm from Quebec—contributions for her retirement, my dad being the working spouse. I know exactly what you're referring to.

Lynn, you mentioned that right now we're supporting a lot more working mothers, and there are many more women in the workforce now than in the past. I am a mother of two. I was an early bloomer as well. I had my first son at 20 and the second at 21. They're both out of the house and I'm able to do this job. What we have put in place is a child care benefit, which is a tax-free program for parents who, perhaps, want to stay home and raise their families and support them in that regard.

I know we've put some systems in place for families to be able to stay home and take care of the children when they're younger, but we've also increased the CPP contributions. We know that more and more people are not getting adequate CPP contributions, or not getting good private pension plans, or often work on contract.

We've increased that to 33% of contributions so that the next generation will be able to have more significant CPP contributions. But you've raised a really interesting point. To support stay-at-home parents—and I'll say “parents”, because we hopefully have some men who will stay home with their children as well—what would you recommend in terms of supports? Give us a concrete example of supports we could provide to acknowledge the contributions of a spouse staying home to raise their child or children? In terms of financial supports, what would you recommend we do to provide that option?

I want to say, Mary, that I'm also part of a military family, so kudos to you and your family for serving our country. Today's the 70th anniversary of NATO. I want to thank you and thank your husband for his service to Canada.

Can any of you give us some suggestions with respect to what we could do to help provide financial supports in addition to the CCB program?

[Lana Schriver]

What about a program for moms choosing to stay at home, at least for their children's preschool years—the cost of day care, times the number of children, times five years? Maybe we could have a bond or security investment to be paid to moms, without excess, until 60 or 65 years. That might be a suggestion.

Day care for one child, in New Brunswick at least, costs approximately $800 a month, probably $1,500 if you have two. So what if you multiplied that $1,500 a month by 12 months, which is $18,000, by five years, which is $90,000, payable with interest? If that was held until the mother reached retirement, if she chose to retire, $90,000 over 40 years could be a good investment.