Right.
Evidence of meeting #141 for Status of Women in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was military.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #141 for Status of Women in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was military.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:15 a.m.
President, LGBT Purge Fund
I agree with that at the recruit level. I think at the recruit level it is important, but also, all along. A lot of the time, we think that it's the onboarding. We give all the dos and don'ts in the onboarding, but then it goes, and we never come back to it. We never talk about it. I think that at every moment, at every transition and in every new platoon, it should be brought back. It should be a top point. It should be “part of”.
The way we see it is that LGBT is not a social group, and women are not a little social group on the side. It's part of the business. It's part of the core. If you're going to have women in the military, the military will not be the same. It has to be seen as being the core of it. As important and as valuable as a man can be, a woman can be to the same level.
I think we're trying, because I see that are camps and there are 10-day trials and things like that, so it brings in women to go. Those are nice initiatives, I think.
I do agree with Michelle. I did meet some captains, one who started the diversity-plus group—LGBT—for the Canadian Armed Forces. That's a good initiative, because then that group gets everybody. Hats off: the captains, the privates and the adjutants. They're all together for a better cause. You have, inside your troops, people working on it. That would be a great thing if that could grow. I think it could help.
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio
We're now going to turn it over to Rachael Harder, for seven minutes.
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
To each and every one of you, thank you so much for taking the opportunity to be here and for being willing to share parts of your story.
Danielle, you certainly shared a compelling account with regard to your experiences within the military thus far—as did all of you.
Perhaps each of you could answer my question. Each of you has experienced different instances of discrimination and ill treatment within the Canadian Armed Forces, yet each of you has remained engaged to various extents, so there's a degree of tenacity that's being demonstrated there. There's commitment, there's passion, there's drive. There's a desire for change. Perhaps you could explain that a little further as to why you remain committed to this endeavour.
Maybe we could start with Danielle, then go to Michelle and continue.
9:20 a.m.
As an Individual
One of the main reasons I still continue to serve is because I love the job. I also hope people come out to the units. When I did go back into the office environment for five years, I started the positive space group in Halifax, Nova Scotia, with three other lovely women. It got so successful that Ottawa took it over. Now it's a nationwide project.
Within those five years, I helped over 50 trans people come out to their units. I helped the medical system reform itself. I've seen a lot of changes. I've seen a lot of good stuff come out of this. I've helped anybody in the LGBT community. I've become the positive space in my own group. Anybody from across the unit knew exactly who I was and could come and talk to me at any given time.
I got over to Esquimalt, and in Esquimalt there was no positive space; there was no LGBT working group. I have since started one, and I've only been there since August.
My goal is to make this a very inclusive military. I know I have the support of the captain of the base, captain (navy), so I know I have all the support I need, including from my own chain of command, to make this get off the ground running. So far, it has been working successfully.
9:20 a.m.
As an Individual
I've noticed that people have changed a lot of their ways. The problem is that there's still odd one in the military who doesn't believe anybody who is LGBT should be working, or they're scared of “Oh, you're going to look at me the wrong way” or “Ooh, this is going to happen”.
However, no, I just love it.
9:20 a.m.
Chair, LGBT Purge Fund
Fundamentally, I'm a supporter of the Canadian Armed Forces. They matter to our country. I believe they uphold the best values of our country, and I appreciate the sacrifice, dedication and commitment of people who serve their country in this way.
I wanted to be one of them for a long time. It didn't work out. If invited to go back and serve my country in the military, I would not do it. Now I'm too old.
However, my service to this country can come in other ways. One of the ways I am doing that, and in fact, have done for the last 30 years, is to be an ever-present voice to try to make sure the military is upholding the values that they claim to.
Inclusion doesn't work if people don't feel included. Diversity, if it's only a matter of rhetoric and concept, isn't enough. I just think, as a Canadian who is interested, it's my duty to keep pushing.
The nice thing is that when you measure it over the course of some 30 years, you do see change. You see that it's getting better. I'm an optimist. Even though the military changed my life and humiliated me at times, I'm still trying to serve in a different way and make them a better organization.
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
Michelle, if I may say before continuing on to Martine, we missed out when you were removed. Thank you for your dedication to service despite that.
9:25 a.m.
President, LGBT Purge Fund
Thank you. This is a very good question and for me, like Michelle, that was horrible to go through. My whole life changed and one day.... It took me 10 years to find work that I felt good in, and it took me 10 years to take a risk, and that was to go work for a very big corporation. I did, and when I found out they were inclusive and all that, I said, “Here we go, I have to tell everybody”, and that's how I started Pride at Work Canada in 2008.
It was my way to say that what happened to me, I don't want to happen to anybody else at any work, because I don't think it should. In creating Pride at Work Canada, I started with eight companies. There are now 120 companies, and my goal was to get the Canadian Armed Forces to join, which they did in 2016. That's why I'm so engaged, but at the same time, I was feeling at one point that what I was saying did not fit with what I was doing, because I accepted that I was thrown out of the Canadian Armed Forces, and I didn't do anything.
That's why I had to do the class action. I had to settle this, and not for only me. When I discovered there were others like me, like Michelle, and there were many of us, it gave me more reason to fight and to say that we cannot go on and say that we're a country of peace, that we're innovators with diversity and all that if we don't clean up our space, and we needed to clear that. We needed to first admit we did it, because no one ever did, and then apologize for it, which we just did. Now we repair, and all those are great things. This is why I'm still in front of you today and I'm still debating that, because I believe we can make it. I believe we can be that inclusive country and that we can teach others. I believe that.
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio
We're now moving on to Irene Mathyssen.
Irene, you have the floor for seven minutes.
May 7th, 2019 / 9:25 a.m.
NDP
Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Thank you to our witnesses. Your determination is inspiring, truly, and so is your courage. I also want to say thank you for your service.
I'm going to start with Danielle. You talked about what happened or what didn't happen when you reported through the chain of command. I'm wondering, from your perspective, what should have happened?
You also made reference to the fact that it was a slap on the wrist, and there didn't seem to be any record or understanding of what you had reported. Could you please explain that to me? It seems odd to me that there wouldn't at least be a paper trail.
9:25 a.m.
As an Individual
For the most part, when it comes to Operation Honour, it's dealt with inside the unit itself. I can't report much more on it because the investigation is still ongoing. Once I found out what they were originally going to give this member, I grieved it very very heavily and severely, and it has now gone to the next level where the captain of Esquimalt will be looking into it more deeply.
9:25 a.m.
NDP
Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
You talked about the slide show, the Operation Honour annual exercise, and it sounded like checking boxes.
9:25 a.m.
As an Individual
In my opinion, that's what it is. I've talked to other people, and everybody knows what Operation Honour is, but for the most part, a lot of people, when it first came out, kept saying, “Oh, it's hop on her”, i.e. Op Honour. Comments are always being made that this is now a very fake thing. Units took advantage of that, and so they made it Operation Honour. We cannot use the short-form version of the name anymore.
They do it every year, or every unit is supposed to. The problem is that a lot of units are not all available, so not everybody's there, and when they do it, it's part of a PD day, shall we say, and it's done midday, so people are already getting tired, hungry or cranky, and I don't believe people are paying full attention to what it is about, and those who do pay attention have heard it so many times that it's now getting dry.
One of the biggest things I've realized is that they don't really publish too much to everybody of what's going on with the Operation Honour side of it. What was the outcome? We don't need to know the full story of what happened, but what was the outcome of this Operation Honour investigation?
Due to the fact that it's in-unit most of the time, you'll never know. The two parties involved never tell anybody what's going on, because they want to keep it as low as they can and not have it spreading around, but let's face it: a navy ship is like a high school. A rumour starts, and in five seconds it's all around the whole ship, so we try to keep it low.
9:30 a.m.
NDP
Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
I was going to ask you about women aboard ship. You're at close quarters, far away from a port. Have you any recommendations in regard to how you look after the safety of the women and the trans members of the crew?
9:30 a.m.
As an Individual
Well, right now the navy is the only one that still segregates the sleeping quarters. In the army and air force, I believe, they all share the same tent. When it comes to their heads and wash places, they're separate, segregated as well, and rightfully so. In the navy, the females have their own mess and their own heads and wash places, which are kept separate from the remainder of the ship. The problem is that, on the ship I'm on, which is an Orca-class vessel—which is a very small vessel—being a senior boatswain mate, I always get thrown down in the bottom instead of having my own cabin, because they refuse to segregate, or refuse to.... “Co-mess” is the best way to put it.
But women on ship are usually treated very poorly, which I've seen specifically, since 95% of my time has been served on ships. Because they're always segregated, when the doors are closed and they're not near the female messes, the men start talking. And specifically, I hate to say it, but when it's that time of the month and all of the women are pretty much synched up after a six-month deployment, every man stays away from that area. But they always make fun of it and they always verbally attack a lot of the females behind their backs when they're out of earshot.
9:30 a.m.
NDP
Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Okay. Thank you.
Madame Douglas, I think in 2015 Madame Deschamps came to this committee and talked about how hopeful she was about Operation Honour. But here we are, five years later, and it doesn't feel as if we've made a lot of progress.
You talked about only a few safe places, in terms of the bases. What stands in the way of making every base, every installation, a safe place, right across the board?