Status of Women Committee on May 14th, 2019

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

One of the recommendations we heard earlier today is that there needs to be actual case management, which I understand from what you said is in the process of happening. I'd like an update on that and also peer support and face to face, because you talk about being able to deliver services, but how often are you able to deliver them face to face?

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Please give a brief answer, unfortunately.

[Denise Preston]

You are right that, to date, what we've been delivering is a 24-7 call centre for people, essentially. However, where we're moving with this case management system is that it's going to be a decentralized function, so we will have people represented across the country and there will be the provision of face-to-face services.

The other thing we're doing is developing—and I referred to it in my comments—a national support strategy. That is going to look at support in a very comprehensive way and at all sorts of different mechanisms, whether it's group support, peer support or the use of technology for people who are in remote locations, for example. It will also look at credentials, training and evaluation.

We are taking a comprehensive look at providing the support people need.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Excellent.

We'll now move over to Emmanuella Lambropoulos.

Emmanuella, you have the floor for seven minutes.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you for being here today to answer our questions.

What you have presented here today, and what we have on paper, seems amazing. It sounds like there is a robust plan in place and that everything works really well. Then, when we hear witnesses, we hear the exact opposite, that none of these things are actually implemented in the CAF.

We've touched a bit on how culture is to blame for this. Also, earlier today, we heard witnesses say that coming from the outside in, they notice a difference in behaviour based on how many years the person has been with the Canadian Armed Forces. It seems to get worse as time goes on. The longer they've been in that setting, the worse their behaviour becomes, towards women, let's say.

I'm wondering, Ms. Patterson, since you might have insider experience as well, if there is any comment you would like to add. Can you share your experience as a women in the CAF and where you think this comes from? Does it stem from the lower ranks? Does it stem from above? What is the reason for this?

[Cmdre Rebecca Patterson]

I can certainly talk from my experience, but I think it's very important that we have the evidence, the data, in order to really know where it comes from.

One thing in 2015 that didn't exist.... It really was kind of “I think that's about where we are and that's what the situation is”. We recognized the fact that we did not have this type of data available to us. In an organization that is as vast, both geographically and in numbers, as the Canadian Armed Forces, we just started in 2016 to break that data out separately. We're starting to get an understanding, with outputs, as to where this is happening and who it's happening by.

We're also about to get the results of a second Statistics Canada survey—next week, on the 22nd—which may be of interest to this committee as well, trying to identify where this is coming from, who is being targeted, and what's going on.

What we know right now, from the Statistics Canada survey in 2016.... Not only did that validate what Madame Deschamps had to say, but we've also had internal surveys, called Your Say surveys, that started to look at where this behaviour is coming from. One thing we know is that women—validating what's been said—who are of junior ranks, the most junior in the services, usually in the regular force not the part-time reserves, and people from the LGBTQ2 community, are the most likely to be targeted.

Why does it seem to get worse as you get older? I think it's happening differently at each level, depending on how much time people have in. There are generational discussions that could be had, but what we are trying to do now is come up with the data, which we can always track.

For my final point, one of the comments earlier was the fact that there is data all over the place. One of the most important parts of this campaign plan that we're discussing is getting to analytics. We now have common operating platforms for all the different groups that collect this information for their usage, so we can start talking—electronically talking—across this data.

That is something that would be worth monitoring, so that you know where and how these incidents are happening.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Preston on your end—again, it sounds great on paper—is there any way that you think we can make it have more bite, make it so that the CAF members have to follow what is being put in policy so that it's actually being practised?

[Denise Preston]

First of all, I want to thank you for acknowledging that you're hearing positive things from us. We certainly feel that there has been a lot of work done in the last three years. We have a lot of things on the table that are under development that I think are going to significantly change the response to sexual misconduct, both in terms of the comprehensive support that we provide to people who are affected and also looking at a number of things related to reporting, to try to address some of these unintended consequences that were identified by the Auditor General's report. We're looking at policy development. Essentially, a lot of what Madame Deschamps had recommended in 2015 is what we're now working hard at.

My hope would be that a year from now the CAF would look different from it does now. I'm not sure that we're going to see a decline in the numbers, but what we're going to see is a more robust framework around it in terms of a policy framework or recourse mechanism framework, a support framework and evaluation framework, so that we're able to do better going forward.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Rachel, did you want to ask anything?

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

My question is to the commodore. Thank you again for appearing here. Just to echo some of the positive comments of my colleagues, I would like to thank you on behalf of us all for your service and also for being a woman leader in the military. I'm sure many young cadets look up to you.

I'm sure you can appreciate, after some of the questions, that there are many witnesses who came to us with very tragic stories of their experiences. Many of those who experienced harassment or sexual misconduct in the military were very saddened to learn that at the end of the processes they went through, the sanctions on their perpetrators—even if they were found guilty—were small fines or a slap on the wrist, as they put it.

I'm not sure if you would have these statistics with you today, but I wonder if you could undertake to provide the committee with some statistics relating to the sanctions on those perpetrators who are found guilty after the CAF dispute resolution process, so that we could better understand the results over the last few years.

[Cmdre Rebecca Patterson]

Most certainly we'll take that question on notice.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Excellent. Thank you very much.

Now we'll start our second round of five minutes each. We'll start with Rachael Harder and then back to Eva Nassif.

Rachael, you have five minutes.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you.

Ms. Patterson, just when you got cut off, you were going to say something with regard to education, I believe. Do you recall what you were going to say?

[Cmdre Rebecca Patterson]

I think I was talking about the “Respect in the CAF” workshop, which was noted in the OAG report as definitely a very valuable approach to attitude and belief-changing. Respect in the CAF is facilitated by expert facilitators who are all civilians. It's a day-long process where they look at everything from unconscious bias as it affects decision-making to how to consider the position of those affected by sexual misconduct and incidents. It also covers things such as bystander intervention training, which is an industry standard in this area. It helps everybody with the decision tool on how you can actually apply this because very often people are shocked when they witness incidents of sexual misconduct throughout the whole spectrum. That was the kind of training I wanted to bring to your attention.

The key is that it isn't just churning people through. It's looking at what the outcomes of this are, starting with how they feel and what they feel they got out of it right after the session. Also, as we move forward and develop the performance management framework, what are the impacts of these interventions?

Lastly, there is the continuous cycle of improvement. As we migrate these processes over to the SMRC, this program includes subject-matter experts to make sure that the training remains on track and accurate, and also that it doesn't cause “death by PowerPoint”. It's going beyond that. It allows for open discussion, which I think is an incredibly valuable learning tool. Members of the Canadian Armed Forces are responding very well to it so far.

I think that may have been my comment.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

That's good.

Based on your observations from the inside, what would you say are the factors that might prevent women from entering the Canadian Armed Forces?

We know that we're not able to attract or retain the number of women that has been set out as the ultimate goal, which is 21% or 25%, I believe. Why is that?

[Cmdre Rebecca Patterson]

Research has been done on the barriers to recruiting and retention. It doesn't sit within the Operation Honour domain—we can provide you with information also on that afterwards—but it looks at the reasons people leave. What has been interesting is that some of the reasons people leave could be that they're ending their contracts and they have other things they wish to do.

What is really important is that in order to retain women, which is a lot of what we're looking at, it definitely involves addressing sexual misconduct, so that not only women on the inside feel safe in the environment they're working in but so that they perceive themselves to be in a safe environment. Most members of the Canadian Armed Forces are not committing sexual misconduct, but it doesn't matter. It's how you feel.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Right.

[Cmdre Rebecca Patterson]

The other thing we know, because I'm also the defence champion for women—I've just shared that with you now—is that one of the other key issues that came out in retention research was a need for a mentorship program that is gender-specific. One thing we have put in, through our employment equity group—I work with the defence women's advisory organization for military and civilian defence women—is a trial of a gender-based mentorship program wherein we have members, military and civilian, from....They are women. They are members of the LGBTQ2+ community.

We have that system in place not to replace what normally happens within their chain of command, but to give them somewhere to ask those very specific questions. How did you manage being a mother and deploying for 13 months? That was my experience. How did you, as a married service couple, face this? How do I, as a member of a same-sex relationship, get the benefits and entitlements I'm eligible for?

We have actually put this in place and we will measure it. Again, we have it as a trial now, because we don't want to create a runaway train that overwhelms us, but it's in place.

The other thing is, as you mentioned earlier, looking at family policies, having a voice and being able to express it when those little irritants in your everyday service, whether involving your uniform or alternate work arrangements, affect you.

We know that the defence women's advisory organization is a very effective voice for women to come together to express and identify.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Excellent. Thank you very much.

For our final questions we have Eva Nassif.

Eva, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Eva Nassif, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Madam Chair, I am going to share my time with my colleague Ms. Rudd.

My thanks to all the witnesses for their presentations.

My question goes to Commodore Patterson and to Ms. Preston.

You talked about Operation Honour and its 10 objectives. You said that two or three of those objectives have been achieved. So seven are left. Why have those other objectives not been achieved? Certainly, the process and the recommendations have not been in place for very long, but what do you need to make those seven recommendations a reality?

[Cmdre Rebecca Patterson]

If possible, I would like to reply in English. It will be easier for me.

[Eva Nassif, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Yes, I don't mind.

[Cmdre Rebecca Patterson]

Concerning the seven remaining recommendations, we are well under way and almost at a point of achieving them. I think the question, though, is, when do we achieve them. What is very important to us is that these are complex recommendations. It isn't as though we put a paper in place and the answer is there.

I could certainly go through the seven remaining recommendations, if you would like.

[Eva Nassif, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

The culture, I think, is the most difficult thing to change.

[Cmdre Rebecca Patterson]

Absolutely. We are working on the cultural change strategy, but rather than just do it in a silo as it relates to sexual misconduct, we are trying to link in to all the other initiatives going on within the department so that when we come up with a cultural change strategy—because it's about respect and dignity for all people—it is harmonized.

Your point about that being challenging is correct, but we are across the start line and are progressing forward.

A number of the recommendations directly relate to the centre for accountability. I will pass the floor to Dr. Preston to comment on them. I'm here to support her as she sees fit in this, but she can certainly speak to these.