Evidence of meeting #25 for Status of Women in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pornography.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Superintendent Jeffery Adam  Director General, E-Crimes, Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police
Kendra Milne  Director, Law Reform, West Coast LEAF
Soraya Chemaly  Director, Women's Media Centre Speech Project, Women's Media Centre

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

Good afternoon. Since we're running a little bit late and we have a quorum, we're going to begin.

We're very happy today to have with us, from the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, Jeffery Adam, the chief superintendent and director general of E-Crimes. We also have from the west coast, the LEAF Association, represented by Kendra Milne, the director of law reform, who is joining us by video conference

I'm sure we'll have a lively conversation.

We'll go to our 10 minutes each for opening remarks and then to our questioning.

We'll begin with you, Jeffery Adam.

3:45 p.m.

Chief Superintendent Jeffery Adam Director General, E-Crimes, Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police

Thank you.

Madam Chair and distinguished members of this committee. I am pleased to accept your invitation and am here today as a member of the E-Crimes committee of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, speaking on behalf of the president, Mario Harel, and CACP members.

The mandate of the CACP is “safety & security for all Canadians through innovative police leadership”. This mandate is accomplished through the activities and special projects of a number of committees and through active liaison with various levels of government and departmental ministries having legislative and executive responsibility in law and policing.

My role with the CACP, as stated, is co-chair of the E-Crimes committee. I oversee the work done by three subcommittees: digital forensics, lawful access and electronic surveillance, and the brand new cyber council. It is in respect to this cyber council that I am appearing here today and, in particular, on the topic of cybercrime.

The growth of social media and the evolving digital environment has changed both how people interact and with whom they interact. This change has happened very quickly, and Canadians are still figuring out this new environment. This digital environment has none of the sensory input that people have evolved to pay attention to. There are none of the usual threat cues that one can see, hear, smell, or feel when entering a dangerous neighbourhood or area.

People check their social media from the comfort of their own homes, feeling safe and comfortable in a physical sense. They may not perceive web pages, marketing sites, or email messages as dangerous based on the their current physical environment as the reader, that is, where they are located, and given the absence of the usual threat cues.

Offenders can have the same mindset, operating from the privacy and relative security of their homes anywhere in the world to commit crimes anywhere in the world. In the offender's mind, where is the risk?

The model of policing that Sir Robert Peel started back in 1829 has less relevance in today's digital world. The historical triangle of offender, police, and victim all being in the same geographic location is no longer true, yet neither police nor the public have discussed what this means to public safety and law enforcement in this new environment.

Canadians also need to have a discussion about the differences between privacy and anonymity. The former is encouraged and is a right to be free from unreasonable intrusion; the latter, in an absolute application, breeds anarchy and impunity from accountability.

Cybercrime has evolved, fuelled by several elements, such as the low risk of apprehension; anonymization through technology; the decreasing expense and increasing power of technology; marketization of cybercrime, which is a business model that has 24-hour support, help desks, sales services, and customization; and the lack of security focus by both businesses and our citizens. The combination of these factors above mean that Canadians are increasingly vulnerable to cyber-attacks and criminal victimization.

The 2016 CACP annual general meeting focused on cybercrime, with a theme of “Real Victims, Real Crimes”, and it provided the memberships with the groundwork to develop a Canadian law enforcement strategy on cybercrime, which is currently in development.

The strategy is based on five main steps, or themes: first, to mainstream cyber-investigative capabilities among law enforcement; second, to deter victimization through education and awareness; third, to increase collaboration between law enforcement, industry, other government agencies, and non-government organizations; fourth, to enhance skills and specialized investigative support and to push evidence gathering to the first responder as much as possible; and fifth, to advocate for the resources, tools, and legislation to keep pace with technological changes.

Thank you and I look forward to answering any questions you may have.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

Excellent.

Now we'll go to Ms. Milne and you'll have 10 minutes as well.

3:45 p.m.

Kendra Milne Director, Law Reform, West Coast LEAF

Thank you so much.

My name is Kendra Milne, and I'm the director of law reform at West Coast LEAF. As was announced, I'm here in Vancouver. I'd just like to acknowledge that I'm on the traditional unceded territory of Coast Salish peoples, and particularly the Squamish, Musqueam, and Tsleil-Waututh peoples.

West Coast LEAF is a non-profit organization here in Vancouver that seeks to achieve equality for women and change historic patterns of discrimination against them through litigation, law reform, and public legal education. Some of our recent work is particularly relevant to the committee's current study.

First, in 2014 we published a report entitled “#CyberMisogyny: Using and strengthening Canadian legal responses to gendered hate and harassment online”. That report laid out provincial and federal law reform recommendations in order to better address online harassment, exploitation of youth, cyberstalking, and hate speech. From that project, we also developed a workshop called TrendShift, aimed at youth in grades 8 to 12, which focuses on asking young people to think about what violence and discrimination might look like in online spaces.

Before jumping into some specific law reform recommendations for discussion today, I first want to reiterate that online violence is simply part of a larger spectrum of violence. For example, our office often hears about cases involving abusive spouses or dating partners. After separation or relationship breakdown, when they may not be able to use physical violence that depends on physical proximity, they simply switch to the online realm in order to continue the same form of abuse. That can take the form of sharing intimate images or information, spreading lies as revenge, or even using necessary forms of communication like email and texts that might be required for co-parenting, in order to basically continue abuse and turn those communications into threats and harassment. It's important to note that this kind of behaviour is simply a continuation of the same kind of abuse as physical violence. It has the same goals—to exert power and control over the victim.

With respect to federal law reform to protect women and girls online, justice looks different for every woman. Some may want to pursue legal remedies and others may not. Setting that aside, though, legal recourse is something that should be open to women to pursue, and it should provide them with meaningful protection when they feel it is the right path for them. With that in mind, I will outline two key suggestions for law reform, one that will offer a new, or rather renewed, legal remedy for women, and one that will improve an existing remedy in order to better deal with online behaviour specifically.

The first thing I want to talk about is the Canadian Human Rights Act. In 2013 the federal government repealed section 13 of the act, which mandated that communications, including telecommunications and online communications, that were likely to expose a person to hatred on the basis of a protected ground amounted to discrimination. It's no coincidence that women, racialized people, people with disabilities, and members of the LGBTQ communities experience disproportionate rates of online violence and harassment. That behaviour is often rooted in sexism, racism, ableism, homophobia, transphobia, and otherwise discriminatory attitudes, which are the same attitudes that led to those groups being protected in human rights legislation in the first place. The Internet and online spaces are simply new and unfortunately very effective tools to continue these historic and systemic patterns of discrimination.

The human rights system offers an important remedy outside of the criminal system for women, because its purpose is not about penalizing the perpetrator. Instead, it is about making the victim whole. The process is also fully within the victim's control and doesn't depend on police and the crown to approve charges and pursue. Human rights legislation has a very powerful place in our legal system. It is considered to be quasi-constitutional, and it also plays an important role in Canada's obligations under both the charter and international human rights provisions that require Canada to take action to end discrimination. By removing this protection from the Canadian Human Rights Act, the government sent a very clear message. That message was that free speech, and even overtly hateful speech, automatically trumps the safety and dignity of those in need of human rights protections, including women. In our view, the federal government should reverse that message and introduce hate speech again as an area of discrimination under the act to give women an added tool to seek justice when they experience online violence.

The second amendment I'd like to speak to will strengthen the criminal harassment offence provisions in the Criminal Code. It will do that by providing interpretive guidance about how to respond to online harassment. The Criminal Code harassment provision, section 264, is silent on when harassment will cause a person to “reasonably” fear for their safety. That's really important, because what might be viewed as reasonably causing fear will be different based on gender, ethnicity, indigeneity, and ability. In particular, women's experiences of violence and navigating the risks of violence in their everyday lives must be reflected when we're talking about what constitutes a reasonable fear.

Online violence takes a massive emotional and psychological toll. As Mr. Adam commented, online violence is particularly rife when parties are not particularly close to each other. In fact, there's often great physical distance.

It's really important that parties, including the judiciary and police, when they come to interpret the Criminal Code, know that it covers behaviours that cause a person to fear for their psychological safety and integrity. There are court cases interpreting the provision that way, but, unfortunately, it is not uniformly applied.

For example, there is the case of Patrick Fox, a man in B.C. who said that he “wanted to destroy his ex-wife” who was residing in the United States. He created a website using her full name, with vulgar content, demeaning images of her, and which purported to describe details of her sex life. He said publicly that nothing short of his death, or making his ex-wife destitute and homeless, would make him stop the harassment. He was arrested in early 2016 for this behaviour, and the crown initially declined to charge him. Speaking of Mr. Fox's actions, a crown representative said, “We couldn't conclude that that would cause the complainant to have an objective fear for their personal safety”.The fact that people lived in different countries played a part in that assessment.

Mr. Fox was eventually charged five months later because of additional evidence, but the crown's comments about physical proximity are troubling and show a really outdated understanding of what can constitute a reasonable fear for safety. In that case, there was clear evidence there was ongoing psychological harm as a result of the online harassment.

In order to remedy situations like this, we suggest that Canada amend section 264 of the Criminal Code to provide assistance to those tasked with applying it, including the police, crown, and the judiciary. Such an amendment could include a non-exhaustive list of what might constitute a reasonable fear for safety, and it could use a definition that takes into account women's experiences of violence in particular. It could also include as an express direction that a reasonable fear for psychological safety will meet the threshold, to ensure that all points in the justice system understand that the psychological impacts of online harassment—the most common impacts—are captured.

These are just two amendments that will provide additional and strengthened legal remedies for women and girls who've experienced online violence.

Thank you.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

Excellent. Thank you very much.

We will now begin the question period.

Mr. Serré, please go ahead.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you so much, both of you, for your presentations, your time, and preparation of them and your insight.

My first question is for Ms. Milne. You mentioned section 13 of the Canadian Human Rights Act. Can you please expand on that a bit, reviewing what changes you want us to consider reintroducing?

3:55 p.m.

Director, Law Reform, West Coast LEAF

Kendra Milne

Sure, absolutely.

Obviously, some online harassment can take the form of what we would call hate speech, when overt sorts of sexual threats are used against women, or when groups of women are targeted with clear threats. In our view, that is gendered hate speech.

There are, of course, hate speech provisions in the Criminal Code, but in our view it's incredibly important that the government really clarify that this kind of behaviour impacts women's human rights, as well other groups with human rights protections. In particular, it's important that they have access to a legal regime that is focused on their needs and how to make them whole, rather than on the perpetrator, which, of course, is a really common criticism of the criminal justice system. Also, it must be within their power to bring...so that it's not dependent on approaching state authorities to pursue justice.

For example, indigenous women may have all sorts of reasons for not wanting to approach police or the state for their justice. What I am suggesting would provide another avenue for women and a really important recognition of the kinds of harms involved and the fact that these kinds of harms, when they're gendered in nature, really go to human dignity and human rights.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON

Thank you.

Mr. Adam, in 2014-15, the Law Amendments Committee of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police examined the Protecting Canadians from Online Crime Act, which was enacted in 2014. In your opinion, are there still gaps in the legislation to protect young women and girls against cyber-violence? If so, what are your suggestions to address some of those gaps?

3:55 p.m.

C/Supt Jeffery Adam

I'll speak generally on that topic, because it would be inclusive. We encounter five key themes as we try to investigate any crime taking place in cyberspace.

First is a reasonable law to allow timely access to basic subscriber information. That's the ability to at least get the information out of what used to be the phone book to tell us where to lead our investigation.

Second is the use of encryption that we're seeing. The perpetrators are hiding behind unbreakable communications encryption, and we cannot get evidence because of that.

Third is the lack of data-retention standards for our telecommunications service providers, which has direct application to this case and any other criminal offence for which we cannot rely on our telecommunications service providers to give us, even under lawful authority, the information that we would need to pursue the crime.

Fourth, which is the most relevant in the conversation so far, is the extraterritorial nature or the lack of geopolitical boundaries of the Internet. Under the current legislation, getting evidence from a foreign party that is a signatory to the MLAT process takes roughly 18 months. That is inadequate and insufficient.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON

Specifically on that, Mr. Adam, is that an international law? Is there anything they could do about...?

4 p.m.

C/Supt Jeffery Adam

It's a mutual legal aided treaty. We would have to revisit the treaty.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON

Ms. Milne, you mentioned quite a few recommendations, and I really appreciate having those on the record.

You alluded to the privacy side of social media, for Facebook and Twitter. Do you have any recommendations for us in our role as the federal government regarding improvements that could be made along those lines related to those two social media?

4 p.m.

Director, Law Reform, West Coast LEAF

Kendra Milne

It's a bit tricky. We done a 90-page report that's filled with all of our recommendations, but I can give the favour of a couple. One of the other things we've recommended is that either through the CRTC or through a similar kind of online consumer protection agency, the federal government could take a stronger role in regulating these kinds of social media platforms that are operating in Canada, and particularly regulating them with an eye to standardizing protocol regarding response, when someone complains about other online behaviour. Right now we hear from women that responses are hit and miss and that they are very sporadic, so we really need some baseline standards that operators in Canada need to adhere to. In particular, I think that would likely be more feasible with the bigger operators. I think it would be more difficult with the smaller up-and-coming operators. I think that at the end of the day, it's very appropriate for the federal government, given its jurisdiction, to deal with regulating in some way these kinds of service providers.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON

Before I go to Mr. Adam, is it possible to give the committee that report?

4 p.m.

Director, Law Reform, West Coast LEAF

Kendra Milne

Yes, absolutely, I can send it.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON

Thank you.

Mr. Adam, do you have any suggestions from the police association? Do you have any recommendations?

4 p.m.

C/Supt Jeffery Adam

The CACP has looked at the extraterritorial issue. Where our major social media providers are not generally situated here in Canada, we looked at it from the perspective of encryption. How would we, if possible, regulate encryption in Canada? But where the apps and the service providers are outside of Canada it became very quickly apparent that it was going to be an extremely difficult task to regulate against encryption. I believe there are some parallels here with the social media providers when they are based outside of Canada and outside of our territorial reach, so to speak. I'm not sure whether regulation in Canada would have a great deal of impact.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

Very good. That's your time.

We'll go now to my colleague, Ms. Vecchio.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Karen Vecchio Conservative Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON

Thank you very much for coming.

I'm going to start with you, Mr. Adam. Many people and organizations that have spoken to us have said they feel there is inadequate training at the first line. The police coming in and first responders are having issues dealing with victims of cybercrime.

Victims of cybercrime report that they have received different advice or responses. At that level, do you feel the response is uniform or do you feel that each and every station or jurisdiction would have different ways of dealing with cyber-violence?

4:05 p.m.

C/Supt Jeffery Adam

In my experience, and that with the E-Crimes committee, I would say, “Yes, it is inconsistent.”

Part of the strategy and part of the reason we organized the annual general meeting around cybercrime was to make the chiefs and their deputies aware that this was a gap. The whole theme was real victims, real crimes. The response to an incident of what I will call “cybercrime”, for the lack of a better word, has to be with the same level of attention as given to a break and enter into a house.

Traditionally, we would have a break and enter or somebody just stealing stuff off your clothesline. You would have a Mountie or somebody else show up, and you may have people dust for fingerprints, take pictures, and all kinds of stuff. Nowadays, sadly, in many jurisdictions, because of the lack of awareness of what can or cannot be done, we are encountering, “Thanks, I'm not sure what to do about that. Is that really a crime?” or “Stay off the Internet.”

We're working very hard at the first pillar of our strategy, mainstreaming cyber-investigative capabilities, to drive down to the first responder at least the basic awareness of what impact cybercrime does have.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Karen Vecchio Conservative Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON

That goes further with my question. What kinds of tools are you putting forward for law enforcement? Are there any tools or resources that the federal government should be assisting you with as well?

4:05 p.m.

C/Supt Jeffery Adam

The high-tech section of the Canadian Police College has online courses available for all law enforcement members to partake of. There is other training. We are working with our international partners on getting access to their cybercrime training programs for free, for Canadian law enforcement. All of those things that are out there, we are now pushing into the field, to please take it, to please understand it, and please act on it.

I don't believe there's anything that the federal government can do that we're not doing in that space right now. It's just a matter of volume, essentially.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Karen Vecchio Conservative Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON

Thank you very much. I'm just going to move on to Kendra.

What is the biggest legal issue that gets in the way of bringing cybercriminals to justice? What do you feel is that one thing? I know you recognize that we look at human rights, hate speech, and a variety of things like that. I know it's very difficult to pinpoint this, but where would you start?

4:05 p.m.

Director, Law Reform, West Coast LEAF

Kendra Milne

I think my response would be very similar to some of the barriers to women getting justice for sexual assault through the criminal justice system, and other forms of violence. I appreciate Mr. Adam's comments and the questions about how to improve training for front-line providers. The training needs to go beyond technical training and what is technically illegal about this is and what the technical investigative powers are, because I think there's a real lack of understanding of the kinds of impacts that online violence can have on people. Because there isn't this physical proximity and there isn't a physical risk of violence or physical evidence of property destruction, it can be trivialized and it's viewed as lesser or not prioritized.

This would be the same recommendations we would make in many situations: understanding the dynamics of gender-based violence. As soon as you understand the dynamics of power and control that the violence is really about, then you can see much more easily how online violence continues to perpetuate that and to cause really serious harm to its victims.

Right now there seems to be, right from front-line police and all the way up to judges, a difficulty in grasping its seriousness and true impact. It tends to be a lesser priority.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Karen Vecchio Conservative Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON

I'm going to share the next few minutes with Ms. Harder. I'll just pass it over.